As always, the question when using an algorithm or test is, 'compared to what?'
Why did the A-level algorithm say no?
41–50 of 143 posts
Re: Why did the A-level algorithm say no?
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Of course children have been hurt by this is practice, there are numerous cases of children getting down graded from their predicted results so badly they're having University offer places withdrawn Yes. I understand there will be cases like this, but what numbers are we talking about? And you were never going to prevent circumstances like those. >we're talking straight A students getting demotd to Ds across the boa…
Marks aren't awarded by the school per se, they're awarded by one of the agencies such as AQA. This results in a lot of angry and upset teachers as the marks just received are a surprise to them too. The Scottish government SQA has already backed down on its "adjustment" and agreed to use estimated marks from teachers and mock exams.
And you think that's more fair? Because to me that is a way worse method of ranking. Mark inflation exists and vary by school. That's a fact. Schools will low academic performance are more guilty of this because all schools and teachers will inevitably grade on a scale relative to other students in that school.
Listen, you can do whatever you want. The reality is that there are more applicants than there are seats at the universities. You can give everyone an 'A' and it won't change the fact that the same amount of students are going to get those spots. The method adopted by the Scottish government punishes students for going to schools and having teachers that don't inflate their marks.
Re: Why did the A-level algorithm say no?
#43[deleted]
The A level is a two year course with assessment at the end. There are no previously examined grades, only estimated and mock ones. https://www.aqa.org.uk/subjects/science/as-and-a-level/chemi... (Modular and coursework based A levels were popular under labour but reverted by the Tories)
What a horrible situation where a whole year group are reliant on their teachers’ opinion of them and the success of other kids at the same school the previous year. Neither of which these children have any direct control over.
Re: Why did the A-level algorithm say no?
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
I completely agree that the system put in place is poor and that it causing an accidental bias is very feasible. But if you're going to put this system in place, with months of planning, you should make damn sure that it isn't massively favouring the children who are already advantaged in life. Which it statistically is, whether intentional or not. They screwed it up so spectacularly that the education secretary had…
It doesnt "favour" any children. Those children were already going to get the highest results. There is no incompetence here. The predicted grades are a good estimate of what the results would have been. The issue is that all teachers significantly over-predicted their students grades, but less so at high-performing schools. (Why? because the grades are more consistent at those schools, so there's less room for error…
> The issue is that all teachers significantly
> over-predicted their students grades,
> but less so at high-performing schools.
"All teachers" is a sweeping statement.There are teachers in comprehensive schools that are tough-markers, too. My wife, who is a teacher in a London school, was annoyed in both directions - there were teachers that she felt had given away high grades, but there was also a teacher that had given the kids in her class grades lower than she expected they'd get (as her identity is tied to being overly careful and she liked to grade kids harder in mocks, etc).
What she felt was bad was that cohorts of kids were often very different year upon year. Last year there were particularly bright kids doing Physics in her school, but this year there was only a few kids and they were much worse. But the algorithm awarded them grades above what she expected.
There were also kids that she expects would have worked hard before their exams and gotten results above what they were given. They didn't get given the chance to do this.
Re: Why did the A-level algorithm say no?
#45Two things worth noting that the article doesn't go into... 1) "The year-on-year rise in proportion of students achieving A or A+ grades was much higher at independent schools than state comprehensives" https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/aug/13/england-a-... Essentially, students lucky enough to be in private education were more likely to see their grades go up / stay the same, compared to students receiving…
> it's hard not to be sceptical that this wasn't intentional and class-motivated. It's incredibly easy "not to be sceptical". The teacher's predicted grades are, on average, unprecedented . And represent many times greater than any previous yoy increase. This is far less true at top-performing schools where teachers are predicting far more consistent grades (by the very nature of being a top performing school). Teach…
Re: Why did the A-level algorithm say no?
#46Do teachers recommend a grade, or a score? If they only recommend grades, how did the algorithm pick which students to change the grades for?
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I've spent the last two days dealing with very upset young people who have had their plans ripped up. Some will still be able to go to university, but not the one they planned on and have been forced into clearing, some won't be able to go at all.
So the story behind this is as follows.
Teachers at colleges and schools submitted grades to exam boards earlier in the summer based on their predictions as to how students would do in exams they would not take due to C19. The exam boards then mauled these with an algorithm.
Our current understanding is that subject cohorts of less than 10 have not had the algorithm applied and 15-20 only slightly. Most private and many small Sixth forms in schools fall in to this category, (note this is students in a subject at a provider not total numbers at that provider)
Some centre assessed grades (CAGs) will have been assigned optomistically (inflated) by teachers in an attempt to advantage them and their students but the vast majority will have been genuine assessments based on submitted work and teacher experience. They had no idea just how much adjustment would be applied, I'm sure if they had them they might not have been quite so honest!
[Edit: a colleague has pointed out that sometimes predicted grades are higher than achieved because there are unanticipated issues very close to exams such as illness, bereavement a stress which are not evident in year. This cannot be predicted by teachers and compensated for in advance, although many schools will have tried to adjust for students who experienced issues in year]
To compensate for this small amount of ingrained optimisation and unpredictability the exam boards have moderated down larger schools CAGs (but not the smaller cohorts). This includes many sixth form colleges with thousands of exam entries.
Sixth form colleges and larger sixth forms are very good at estimating grades and have been extremely thorough in their efforts to assign realistic grades. Our own teachers spent weeks compiling grades from previous work and tests to get the most accurate assessment they could. No one wanted their students to miss out, no one underestimated their CAGs.
The exam boards were not going to stand for a big increase in grades this year so they applied an aggressive algorithm to the larger subject cohorts. Our college for example has hundreds of A level maths students which makes us a target for harsh moderation despite having increadable value added and a history of very accurate (not over inflated) predictions; vast numbers of our students have seen their grades dropped by one or two grade boundaries, I have only seen one moderated up.
Many of our students have missed out on university places. Despite positive news stories about one Oxbridge University College most universities have not moderated their offers in light of this crisis and many students at private schools will have been able to swoop in on those places and adjust upwards to higher tarrif courses.
Now, whether you think this is a government fix up or not; it is not fair on poorer students at bigger schools and coincidentally some more 'privileged' students have been given another leg up.
Talk to your MP talk about it on social media and lobby to get this fixed because it's going to mess up a lot of young people's futures. These young people are now voters and I hope they will be registering their concern with their local MPs which may motivate them to put pressure on the minister and in turn the exam boards
If you think this was a fiasco then hold on tight because next weeks GCSE results will be based on less information and are likely to be even more skewed! We will hit a second crisis of students not being able to access A levels and colleges having to juggle the same situation as universities are this week. Many GCSE students will be awarded grades which either over inflate or under play their ability. Many will lose an A level place and others will end up on courses which they are 'qualified' for but are overwhelmingly too hard for them, causing distress and self esteem issues. This is on top of the emerging increase in youth mental health issues due to C19 and the lockdown.
If you feel the government's last minute addition of the 'tripple lock' and free appeals makes everything OK then I have disappointing news for you. Mock exams are internally administered in a variety of different ways. Allowing the use of mocks rather than CAGs will lead to even more disparity. September exams for students, out of education and in lock down for 6 months with no access to resources and who thought they had finished their A levels? I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions about whether that will be helpful.
We in education will continue, we will pick up the pieces, we will do everything we can to make sure these young people have the best outcomes they can.
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Re: Why did the A-level algorithm say no?
#47Two things worth noting that the article doesn't go into... 1) "The year-on-year rise in proportion of students achieving A or A+ grades was much higher at independent schools than state comprehensives" https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/aug/13/england-a-... Essentially, students lucky enough to be in private education were more likely to see their grades go up / stay the same, compared to students receiving…
> it's hard not to be sceptical that this wasn't intentional and class-motivated. It's incredibly easy "not to be sceptical". The teacher's predicted grades are, on average, unprecedented . And represent many times greater than any previous yoy increase. This is far less true at top-performing schools where teachers are predicting far more consistent grades (by the very nature of being a top performing school). Teach…
Part of the problem is that teachers often push the "prediction" slightly higher as a means of motivating the student. Now those predictions are being used as the real deal.
I am pretty convinced that most teachers with more than superficial experience will be able to predict grades reasonably accurately, after doing so for many tens of students 5-6 times a year .
Re: Why did the A-level algorithm say no?
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
It doesnt "favour" any children. Those children were already going to get the highest results. There is no incompetence here. The predicted grades are a good estimate of what the results would have been. The issue is that all teachers significantly over-predicted their students grades, but less so at high-performing schools. (Why? because the grades are more consistent at those schools, so there's less room for error…
> The issue is that all teachers significantly > over-predicted their students grades, > but less so at high-performing schools. "All teachers" is a sweeping statement. There are teachers in comprehensive schools that are tough-markers, too. My wife, who is a teacher in a London school, was annoyed in both directions - there were teachers that she felt had given away high grades, but there was also a teacher that had…
In both state and private schools, teachers over-predicted. But higher-performing schools have higher and more uniform results, so there's less room to actually over predict -- so there's comparatively less reduction.
That's just an in-built concequence of what it means to be a high performing school
Re: Why did the A-level algorithm say no?
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
Independant schools (private schools) received 4.7% more A/A* grades than they did in 2019. The most common type of non-private school, Secondary Comprehensive, received only 2% more A/A* grades than in 2019. The algorithm didn't keep the gap between paid and unpaid education, it expanded it. (Source for these numbers and more in my first comment.) I was lucky enough to not only go to two private schools, but the sec…
Right, and what was the previous yoy disparity? If the previous YoY was also 5%/2%, then it is just repeating the trend. It isnt the job of statisticians to "fix" social inequality by BSing some grades. Its their job to estimate likely exam results based on previous performance. There's absolutely no grounds on which to assume that growth in A*/A across these demographics would be the same; and of course, very many r…
It's only been a couple of days, we'll get more data journalists breaking it down better soon.
You know what would be really helpful? If the algorithm was released to be publicly reviewed. Oh, but the government is refusing to do that, and Ofqual made anyone consulting on this project sign a 5 year NDA or they couldn't get involved. Hmm.
Edit: and while I'm pretty sure the data will show schools weren't on track for that inflation, actually no I disagree with you that it would be fair to extrapolate previous cohort improvements to this year's anyway.
Re: Why did the A-level algorithm say no?
#50Couldn't the UK just have a regular exam, just with the social distancing measures implemented? The exams were held in many European countries with these measures and nothing bad happened and the children has received a fair examination for the University