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USPS Files Patent for a Blockchain-Based Voting System

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Re: USPS Files Patent for a Blockchain-Based Voting System

#141
post #48

Am I the only one still against network-based, and to a lesser extent electronic-based, voting? It's near impossible to rig or suppress a physical election without a lot of effort, but one person can DDoS an entire network and no one can vote and the whole election needs to be scrapped. Not even the strongest cryptographic or software systems are free from exploits (especially over time) and there's no way to be sure…

Add to that, that the average person have a right to understand how voting works and how their vote is counted. Trying to make voting electronic, regardless of it being block chain or something else, ensures that only a few people are able to understand the system. Right now it easy to verify that count was done correctly, in theory you could go do it your self. Computers will back voting a black box system where ver…

>Trying to make voting electronic, regardless of it being block chain or something else, ensures that only a few people are able to understand the system.

This. Too many Internet/blockchain voting proponents tout their systems without appreciating the fact that people need to trust their elections. Trust comes from being open and scrutable. It's amazingly tonedeaf and elitist to insist that election systems need to be cloaked in cryptographic mumbo-jumbo to be trustworthy. It's also dangerous because the poll workers actually carrying out the election won't be able to tell when there's a failure.

Re: USPS Files Patent for a Blockchain-Based Voting System

#142
post #140
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not the only one. However I don't think security is even a relevant concern, because there is one much more fundamental flaw in all electronic voting systems: The goal of voting is to produce agreeable consent — so it doesn't really matter how you organise voting, as long as everybody afterwards can agree who won, who lost and by how much. So phrased differently, one of the most important properties of any vo…

Wouldn't a blockchain voting system help here, if everyone can examine the time, place, and votes in the history, and see that all the block hashes match what's expected? That gives much stronger guarantees than paper, and while the average Joe can't verify it himself, there would be three million programmers in the US alone who easily could. Whereas with paper I can't count the votes myself, I have to trust the auth…

The average Joe doesn't want the nerds to pick the president.

Also, don't forget it's a secret ballot, and we do not have any good database of people with public keys in this country. What the hell am I supposed to make of a ledger with 100s of million anonymous public keys? Surely I cannot claim that relates 1-1 with the choices of real people.

Re: USPS Files Patent for a Blockchain-Based Voting System

#143
post #27

Maybe this is a dumb idea, but what if for each election we issued a ballot containing a unique, random, sequential prime number to every registered voter? Then, when counting the votes for each candidate we display the running product of all the primes counted for that candidate as a "checksum", or "check product". This retains privacy while allowing individual voters to easily verify that their vote was counted by…

Private vote, guaranteed counting, no extra votes. Pick two. The system you’ve described only implements guaranteed counting.

Re: USPS Files Patent for a Blockchain-Based Voting System

#144
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, at least in my circles nobody thinks electronic voting is a good idea. I think Tom Scott has the best argument: you can't build a system that requires you to have a PhD in computer science to fully understand why you should trust it. Every day people need to have faith in voting and not just because a group of experts say they should.

We put our faith into systems built by PhDs every day. People don’t have to understand why airplanes stay in the air in order for them to be the only practical means of rapid international transport.

Doesn't that mean we should trust PhDs who are yelling at the top of their lungs that Internet voting is a bad idea right now?

https://www.nationalacademies.org/news/2018/09/securing-the-...

Re: USPS Files Patent for a Blockchain-Based Voting System

#145
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not simply print a receipt after voting with the vote printed verbatim and a digital token that allows the voter to easily check whether the vote has actually been counted correctly. The token could be a hash of some relevant parameters that are easy to check and maybe digitally signed by the voting machine or whatever.

The point of the secret ballot is to make it very hard to sell votes, because you can’t prove how you voted. (Vote by mail is not a secret ballot.)

How is vote by mail not a secret ballot?

I live in CA where we have had mail-in voting for some time. As far as I know, I don't have anyway to prove to someone that I voted a particular way.

Re: USPS Files Patent for a Blockchain-Based Voting System

#146
post #140
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not the only one. However I don't think security is even a relevant concern, because there is one much more fundamental flaw in all electronic voting systems: The goal of voting is to produce agreeable consent — so it doesn't really matter how you organise voting, as long as everybody afterwards can agree who won, who lost and by how much. So phrased differently, one of the most important properties of any vo…

Wouldn't a blockchain voting system help here, if everyone can examine the time, place, and votes in the history, and see that all the block hashes match what's expected? That gives much stronger guarantees than paper, and while the average Joe can't verify it himself, there would be three million programmers in the US alone who easily could. Whereas with paper I can't count the votes myself, I have to trust the auth…

> That gives much stronger guarantees than paper, and while the average Joe can't verify it himself, there would be three million programmers in the US alone who easily could.

I think the current US population that really understands blockchains is less than 1% of the population.

Re: USPS Files Patent for a Blockchain-Based Voting System

#147
post #48

Am I the only one still against network-based, and to a lesser extent electronic-based, voting? It's near impossible to rig or suppress a physical election without a lot of effort, but one person can DDoS an entire network and no one can vote and the whole election needs to be scrapped. Not even the strongest cryptographic or software systems are free from exploits (especially over time) and there's no way to be sure…

It's a generational thing.

Younger software engineers who grew up doing everything on their phones see this as something worth solving, because it would vastly improve access, end voter suppression, and people wouldn't have to take time off work to vote anymore. Universal mail-in ballots do address many of those points, but also have downsides (signature verification is tricky).

Older engineers on the other hand don't seem to want this to be solved.

Re: USPS Files Patent for a Blockchain-Based Voting System

#148
post #96
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not the only one. However I don't think security is even a relevant concern, because there is one much more fundamental flaw in all electronic voting systems: The goal of voting is to produce agreeable consent — so it doesn't really matter how you organise voting, as long as everybody afterwards can agree who won, who lost and by how much. So phrased differently, one of the most important properties of any vo…

Taiwan has the best way of counting votes. Ballot is hold in the air, the name is called out and someone in the back keeps the score. Everyone can see what is going on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqKt-lPfJuw

I think that system is pretty similar everywhere, probably only in the US you have some weird mechanical machine to cast your vote.

Re: USPS Files Patent for a Blockchain-Based Voting System

#150
post #12

We should be experimenting with electronic voting for 30 years and innovate solutions to its problems. Nobody thinks it doesn't have problems, but to just stop at pen and paper voting just means to affirm the problems of pen and paper which are IMO much worse. (scarce voting, batched issues)

Most european countries simply don't have any problems with pen and paper voting. Turnout is typically much larger than in the US with its crazy mix of electronic/mail-in/in-person voting. Probably this is due to automatic voter registration for all citizens, having the elections on Sunday or on a holiday, and (in some cases) not having a first-past-the-post system where a large fraction of votes don't matter anyway.
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