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Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

nature.com

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Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#211

Post by fnord123 »

jmcgough wrote: post #57
neonate wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to hear your theories if you'd be willing to share them.

Trans people in general were largely ignored by research until the 2010s, so there's very little we do know at this point. But as for unresearched hunches... There's lots of jokes in the trans community about how your stereotypical trans girl is on the autism spectrum, with rainbow-colored hair, and into kink, anime, and programming. I think there's more of a willingness to challenge societal expectations of us in th…

> also an intense emotional empathy

I've read people saying this before, but DSM-5 299.00 (F84.0) for ASD suggests the complete opposite. So where do you get this description as a trait for ASD?

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#212

Post by rodgerd »

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #170
hh3k0 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But they mean it in the sense that they should be in an asylum or should not be catered to. I have often heard it in a sense of "should not be catered to but rather given medical help". A fellow student once told me that he considers the current way of treating gender dysphoria irresponsible and that, if we'd treat schizophrenia the way we treat gender dysphoria, we'd all have to aknowledge the voices they hear and…

While carefully not expressing an opinion one way or the other, a more clear-cut example might be body integrity dysphoria: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_dysphoria , in which some feel that parts of their body are alien to them and should be removed. Should people support those who have this dysphoria and allow them to proceed or do the negatives outweigh the positives?

If it reliably produces better outcomes why wouldn't you?

What next, prevent women from having tubal ligation because you're offended that they don't want children?

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#213

Post by DanBC »

lemonberry wrote: post #16
Pfhreak wrote: post #7

Hanging out in trans circles (as a non-binary person myself), this seems commonly known within the community. Interesting to see research done here, but I'd be careful about over generalizing (e.g. "All trans people are neurodiverse"). Edit: Also, happy to answer questions about being non-binary (specifically, gender fluid) if folks have good faith questions.

Have you heard of Abigail Shrier's book "The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters"? She was on Joe Rogan's podcast recently though I have yet to listen to it. A quick search turned up, not surprisingly, some negative critiques and others that are more positive. If you have heard of it, or read it, I'd love to hear what you think of her position. I appreciate the offer to be part of a dialogue. I think it's import…

> "The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters"?

Some parents of trans children talk about "rapid onset gender dysphoria". They claim their child was happy until they got to about 12 and then all of a sudden BAMN they became trans because the Internet told them to. They'll sometimes claim that science supports them.

There's no evidence that ROGD exists. It's a term that's only ever used by people who are trans-excluding, or by people debunking it.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/political-minds/2020...

> The paper claims that there is a new diagnostic entity called "rapid-onset gender dysphoria." This term comes from a paper published in the journal PLoS One, in which the author anonymously surveyed parents recruited from websites that focus on the theory that trans youth identify as transgender due to "social contagion" and online influences. Unfortunately, the paper did not survey any of the youth themselves or their clinicians. The only thing the paper established is that some people online believe that youth rapidly become transgender as a result of watching trans-related content on Youtube and Reddit. article continues after advertisement

> People should be aware that parents often think that transgender youth became transgender "all of a sudden," because youth were closeted prior to coming out, due to fear of family rejection. Presumably, youth with parents who believe being transgender is a disease would be likely to conceal their identity for prolonged periods of time. It would be important to interview the youth themselves to know if this were the case.

https://medium.com/@KatyMontgomerie/jkrs-claims-part-6-lisa-...

> There was a lot wrong with Littman’s paper. Firstly the study involved no trans people, just the parents of trans people. Secondly all of the participating parents were found on just a handful of websites such as “Transgender Trend” and “Youth Trans Critical Professionals”, which run forums specifically for unsupportive parents of trans kids. As JKR notes the controversial paper received a lot of criticism from within the scientific community:

> "The journal took the paper offline and re-reviewed it before republishing it."

> But it is deceptive of JKR to describe what happened in this way. The post-publication review resulted in major corrections to the paper and an apology from the editor of the journal. The editor noted “the corrected article now provides a better context of the work, as a report of parental observations, but not a clinically validated phenomenon or a diagnostic guideline”. For a comprehensive takedown of this paper see here.

That last sentence links here: https://genderanalysis.net/2018/02/rapid-onset-gender-dyspho...

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#214

Post by bananaface »

XorNot wrote: post #63
hh3k0 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But they mean it in the sense that they should be in an asylum or should not be catered to. I have often heard it in a sense of "should not be catered to but rather given medical help". A fellow student once told me that he considers the current way of treating gender dysphoria irresponsible and that, if we'd treat schizophrenia the way we treat gender dysphoria, we'd all have to aknowledge the voices they hear and…

People making claims like that generally no nothing of the procedure by which mental health issues are diagnosed - which is to say, mental health treatment is about addressing issues which are negatively affecting someone's quality of life, until they are not. This is the same reason you can't just go through the DSM V and ascribe mental health conditions to people on TV or in the media or whatnot - it doesn't work t…

I don't think this is true. A psychiatrist would never validate positive voices, except perhaps in the pursuit of further treatment. "Yes, your positive voices are real."

They would treat it as an illness, whether or not they prescribe treatment.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#215

Post by hh3k0 »

zaksoup wrote: post #33
hh3k0 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But they mean it in the sense that they should be in an asylum or should not be catered to. I have often heard it in a sense of "should not be catered to but rather given medical help". A fellow student once told me that he considers the current way of treating gender dysphoria irresponsible and that, if we'd treat schizophrenia the way we treat gender dysphoria, we'd all have to aknowledge the voices they hear and…

> "If we'd treat schizophrenia the way we treat gender dysphoria, we'd all have to acknowledge the voices they hear and pretend we hear them too." This is easy to dismiss by pointing to evidence based treatment practices. The treatment which is most effective at reducing suicide rates among people experiencing gender dysphoria is gender affirming care [0]. I doubt it is the case that the treatment that is most effect…

Thank you for your reply. I have to work but will make sure to read the link you provided on my tablet before hitting the hay tonight.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#216

Post by throwaway_pdp09 »

vmception wrote: post #11

Some detractors often say transgender people have mental health issues. But they mean it in the sense that they should be in an asylum or should not be catered to. A reality is that: A) Gender dysphoria is an imbalance of neural state. Therefore that would by definition be a mental health issue but not like the detractors say. B) Acknowledging and accommodating gender dysphoria discomfort costs cisgender people nothi…

> B) Acknowledging and accommodating gender dysphoria discomfort costs cisgender people nothing and unlocks the productiveness of an additional population in society.

jesus that's a shocking thing to read. Nothing about how they feel or wish to be treated - the very basis of human decency - but how they should be tolerated for society's industrial needs. OMG that's so cold.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#217

Post by tchaffee »

clusterfish wrote: post #206
tchaffee wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making a claim about the culture one is familiar with does not exclude that the same might be true in other cultures.

Try and say something unflattering about a culture you're familiar with "that also applies to other cultures", you'll be burned at the stake as racist / xenophobic / insensitive / etc. Except when that culture is "the west" aka white people, then that's ok I guess.

That's not true. As one example, I have many Chinese friends and they are never called any of those things when they point out something negative about their culture. If you are getting called a racist that often, the problem just might not be other people.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#218

Post by bananaface »

chownie wrote: post #192
engineeringwoke wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

n = 57. You can't be serious, right?

How large should the sample be before it's substantive? The British polling institute advises a sample of 1000 for a total UK population of around 60,000,000. Trans people make up 1% so roughly 600,000, with that in mind 57 doesn't seem that low?

Bigger than 57. Bad power is bad power whether or not it's the best you can get.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#219

Post by DanBC »

hombre_fatal wrote: post #180
klyrs wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have you heard of Abigail Shrier's book "The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters"? She was on Joe Rogan's podcast recently though I have yet to listen to it. A quick search turned up, not surprisingly, some negative critiques and others that are more positive. So, you're asking an honest question, but it's pretty insensitive and I hope you're curious because this is the truth. Framing that as a curious questio…

It never says that the crazy describes all trans people. It doesn't call all trans fakes. You seem to even admit you didn't make it past the title with your uncharitable read, so how do you expect to respond to something it actually claims? It points out that there are some social contagion factors to some expressions in our youth. Which is completely reasonable given how much clout gives you in modern social media,…

> "become trans" and win social favor

This is not how it works in the real world, is it?

Someone becoming trans will lose access to a large number of potential dating partners, they will be bullied and ostracized, they face increased levels of violence, they face reduced worker protections, etc etc.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#220

Post by odessacubbage »

crooked-v wrote: post #28
alicemaz wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

oh interesting. I've had a pet theory for awhile now re: trans/autism comorbidity that they're better thought of as symptoms (among others! op's link notes higher incidence of every surveyed mental disorder) of some underlying brain abnormality, rather than being tangled up in some causal relationship with each other. had not heard of gender incoherence theory before

One thing I would respectfully suggest here is to use language like 'atypical' rather than 'abnormal', as it avoids some of the unpleasant subtext of the latter word. (At least so far - the euphemism treadmill makes for an unending race, but it's still worth putting in the effort.)

maybe it's an overly optimistic hill to die on but imo, the best thing we could do for divergent people is to normalize abnormality rather than codify softer language to avoid describing it as abnormal or creating 32 new checkboxes of 'normal'
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