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Trump says he is considering pardon for Edward Snowden

reuters.com

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Re: Trump says he is considering pardon for Edward Snowden

#291

Post by Lammy »

deelowe wrote: post #226
jjordan wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering 3-4 years ago he referred to him as a traitor, I'd say the significant shift in stance is news. Should a pardon happen, this would set an important precedent for future whistleblowers and for the rule of law in the often obfuscated corners of the federal government. Support the efforts of Rand Paul and Thomas Massie, who have already publicly stated their support for a Presidential pardon in this case.

I think after 3 and 1/2 years, we'd all recognize by now that Trump more often than not says things just to stir up controversy. As others have said, this isn't newsworthy until he actually does something.

If stirring that controversy means reigniting debate about our collective surveillance apparatus then I'm not sure how I should feel :)

Re: Trump says he is considering pardon for Edward Snowden

#292

Post by listenallyall »

darksaints wrote: post #272
listenallyall wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Covid killing hundreds of thousands under his care but, but, but... it was going to kill millions!!! https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/0... https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/19/the-coronavirus-could-kill-m... https://www.syracuse.com/coronavirus/2020/03/millions-could-...

We're 3/4 of the way there, infections growing at the fastest rate yet, and no vaccine yet. It looks like 1 million will fall short of actual deaths by the time this is through.

oh, so now Covid deaths outside of the USA are Trump's fault too?

Re: Trump says he is considering pardon for Edward Snowden

#293

Post by totalZero »

lettergram wrote: post #15
totalZero wrote: post #10

Kind of hard to prosecute Assange if you're willing to pardon Snowden. I'm gonna go make some popcorn and keep watching for Assange's name in the pre-election headlines.

Assange isn’t even a US citizen, nor (if I recall) was the “crime” on US soil. Further, The “crime” of booting up the drive should be independent of what was done with it. It’s insane to me Assange is being prosecuted. Who in the US government is willing to stand up and say this is wrong? The person who leaked the data is going to get far less time in prison.

Citizenship is not a component of any relevant statute, to my knowledge. It's certainly not mentioned in the First Amendment.

What I'm saying is, if Snowden -- who is the alleged primary source of a leak -- gets pardoned, then how can Assange -- who may not have had any primary involvement whatsoever with the leak of the documents he published -- be held responsible? Logically it makes no sense because Assange's alleged crime is lesser than Snowden's.

Re: Trump says he is considering pardon for Edward Snowden

#294

Post by sneak »

smsm42 wrote: post #235
sneak wrote: post #38

The CIA will instagib Snowden the instant it is physically possible for them to do so. A pardon will never change that. The commander of the CIA states it plainly: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/39568370275766272... (Remember, we're talking about the same CIA that hacked US congressional computers, because the congress was investigating the CIA’s torture record and they wanted to cover it up. Then the CIA…

It is a common political trick to find a quote from somebody years ago and pretend that quote says it all about that person. It may even be effective at times. But if you actually believe that if Trump said something in 2013 that quote alone is his true lifetime conviction and he will never change it till he is alive (Trump, of all people!) then you're getting high on your own supply.

Whether or not he wants any specific individual person dead is less relevant to the matter than the fact that he called for the execution of a US citizen that had not yet been put on trial.

That indicates his lack of belief in the basic concepts of our legal system and constitution: the presumption of innocence, due process of law, the right to a trial, et c. This is further corroborated by the fact that the things Snowden revealed were unconstitutional actions by the US federal government, the exposure of which is in his view worthy of the most ultimate of punishment.

I have not seen any indication in the intervening time that he has become more concerned with due process or constitutional rights; in fact quite the opposite: he has recently deployed federal forces to violently attack peaceful protesters. A consistent, long-term pattern of unconstitutional behavior emerges, entirely independent of his specific opinion at this time about one Ed Snowden.

I hope that I did not indicate that he can’t change his mind, simply that, in this instance, he has not.

Should he decide to pardon Snowden, no one should be surprised if he subsequently commands some or all of the people under his command to deprive him of rights or life.

Doing so would be entirely consistent with his old statements, as well as his recent ones.

Re: Trump says he is considering pardon for Edward Snowden

#295

Post by totalZero »

cryptonector wrote: post #190
totalZero wrote: post #10

Kind of hard to prosecute Assange if you're willing to pardon Snowden. I'm gonna go make some popcorn and keep watching for Assange's name in the pre-election headlines.

In the Snowden case Trump has at least two reasons to pardon him: a) pander to a certain crowd (tech), b) stick a finger in the IC's collective eye. In the Assange case Trump has at least one more reason to pardon him: so Assange can tell the world whether Seth Rich gave him the DNC emails. But if Trump even floats a pardon for Assange then the Swedish government might renew its claims against Assange and the UK migh…

> In the Snowden case Trump has at least two reasons to pardon him: a) pander to a certain crowd (tech), b) stick a finger in the IC's collective eye.

I totally agree but this is a political explanation, not a philosophical nor a judicial explanation. It seems clear to me that what Snowden did was more serious than what Assange did, because Snowden was the primary source.

> Trump pardons Assange just before the election without having floated it, and possibly at the same time as Snowden.

This is the outcome that would most intrigue me. I have no idea how people would react, but personally I think pardoning Assange makes much more sense than pardoning Snowden. The difference is that Snowden is living in Russia and Assange is in UK custody.

Re: Trump says he is considering pardon for Edward Snowden

#296

Post by luckylion »

atlgator wrote: post #122
kgarten wrote: post #58

Is it just me or is the term leaker politically charged in the context. For me, Snowden is a whistle blower not a leaker. There's a reason why he revealed secretes (he also didn't just release them, but was very careful how much he revealed), the secrete programs were unconstitutional -> whistle blower not leaker. edit: typo.

He was not a Government employee at the time. Contractors don't get to be whistle blowers. EDIT: Turns out the law does protect contractors, so I guess it's circumstantial that employees get branded whistle blowers and contractors get charged as spies.

A Russian plant in the white house would still be a spy, even though they're an employee. A contractor who isn't working for any intelligence service isn't a spy, even if they publish secret documents.

Re: Trump says he is considering pardon for Edward Snowden

#297

Post by anigbrowl »

refurb wrote: post #191
smt88 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politically, he just says insane things that get headlines, which distract from the real news: Covid killing hundreds of thousands under his care, dismantling of the Post Office, and other highly unpopular consequences of his presidency.

Covid killing hundreds of thousands under his care But the US is near the middle-bottom of per capita deaths in Western countries and far behind several European countries.[1] [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deat...

You only looked at the first 13 of 150 results, huh. You can adjust the number of countries shown from the dropdown at the top right.

Re: Trump says he is considering pardon for Edward Snowden

#298

Post by ttyprintk »

curiousgal wrote: post #281
surround wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seven years ago, Trump said Snowden should be executed. Four years ago, in an interview, Obama refused to pardon Snowden. I’d say this is a notable development.

Honestly who cares? The guy is actively trying to undermine your (flawed) democracy. Anything he does or says is moot and serves merely as a distraction.

I think parent is trying to draw a trendline toward executive forgiveness. A Trump pardon is different than an Obama pardon. This is about Trump, not Snowden, and not about the issues of the modern surveillance state as demonstrated by Snowden. A Snowden pardon by Trump will have a clause where Snowden promises to appear on stage at a rally. (edit, clarity)

Re: Trump says he is considering pardon for Edward Snowden

#299

Post by enjeyw »

cryptonector wrote: post #138
enjeyw wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm uncertain here, but my gut tells me that potential positive and negative effects of whistleblowing are so hard to predict and fully attribute (they tend to be at a global geopolitical scale where lots of other cofounding factors are involved), that we should judge whistleblowers on their underlying motivations instead. Was the whistleblower/leaker motivated purely by a desire to improve the welfare of their natio…

Hard cases make bad law and all that. There's no easy way to construct a good general rule here.

Yeah very fair point, though (and?) ideally you'd want to be able to provide some heuristic for citizens to use to predict how their actions will be judged, to help them decide whether leaking is the right move or not.

Re: Trump says he is considering pardon for Edward Snowden

#300

Post by cryptonector »

totalZero wrote: post #295
cryptonector wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Snowden case Trump has at least two reasons to pardon him: a) pander to a certain crowd (tech), b) stick a finger in the IC's collective eye. In the Assange case Trump has at least one more reason to pardon him: so Assange can tell the world whether Seth Rich gave him the DNC emails. But if Trump even floats a pardon for Assange then the Swedish government might renew its claims against Assange and the UK migh…

> In the Snowden case Trump has at least two reasons to pardon him: a) pander to a certain crowd (tech), b) stick a finger in the IC's collective eye. I totally agree but this is a political explanation, not a philosophical nor a judicial explanation. It seems clear to me that what Snowden did was more serious than what Assange did, because Snowden was the primary source. > Trump pardons Assange just before the elect…

Well yes, I gave a political explanation as I don't disagree that it's "[k]ind of hard to prosecute Assange if you're willing to pardon Snowden".

IMO there are only two or three reasons to pardon Assange on the eve of the election: to pander to techies, to show good will, or because Trump believes Assange should be pardoned. It will be very interesting if that happens.

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