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Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

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Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#121

Post by Pfhreak »

empthought wrote: post #99
ceejayoz wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone said "you're a woman", would you disagree?

Only on the basis of everyone until that person having said differently, up to and including someone else already having defined “man” as a male human.

Some people feel differently. If you were addressed as "ma'am" everywhere you went, you may not be that bothered. You might find it really frustrating.

Even within the bounds of a gender (e.g. masculine), people will find themselves wanting to be seen as a particular point within that gender's spectrum. (E.g. you might want to be seen as a tough guy, or a sensitive man, etc.) It can be frustrating to feel like you are the tough guy but no one seems to treat you that way.

The point is that experience is different for different people. Many people are comfortable with whatever, others aren't and want to try to take deliberate actions to make themselves be perceived more like how they see themselves.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#122

Post by empthought »

Pfhreak wrote: post #115
empthought wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the distinguishing characteristic of someone who is gender fluid vs. someone who is not?

Simplified explanation that leaves out the discussion of people who are agender, genderqueer, etc.: If you conceptualize gender as 'manliness' or 'femininity', you can pretty easily see that some folks are more or less 'manly', that gender must therefore exist as a spectrum. There are men who are very feminine, and women who are quite manly, so in my mind, these spectrums have some overlap. Most folks have a pretty r…

I think you might overestimate how strongly or rigidly people in general conceive of how they “fit” on a daily basis, or how strongly they link activities, dress, or title to “manliness” or “womanliness.”

For a simple example, some days I want to listen to Tori Amos and cry, and other days I want to listen to Metallica and punch things, but nothing in any of this has any bearing on my identification with any gender.

I have some pretty obvious male secondary sex characteristics so it would be a big problem if that caused me daily discomfort, but that doesn’t really seem to be what genderfluidity is about?

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#123

Post by seba_dos1 »

klipt wrote: post #110
zaksoup wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not the OC but many of my friends and peers are trans and I find "agender" to be the most useful descriptor to myself. One thing I've noted is that once you start to identify the ways in which gender is fundamentally a social construct the link with autistic/neurodivergent folks makes much more sense. Anybody who struggles to instinctively navigate social norms and behaviors will also struggle to instinctively na…

> Anybody who struggles to instinctively navigate social norms and behaviors will also struggle to instinctively navigate gendered norms and behaviors, simply because the two are inextricable. But if masculine and feminine gender roles are equally difficult to navigate, that doesn't explain why transitioning would help. You'd just be swapping out one difficult gender role with another.

They may be "equally difficult to navigate" in a grand scheme of things, but they're probably not equally difficult for a particular person. Everyone got their own set of traits and interests that may make adhering to a particular gender role easier than the others.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#124

Post by empthought »

ceejayoz wrote: post #119
empthought wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Terms change; distinctions between similar terms get made as they’re needed. And the distinction among “man,” “woman,” and “non-binary” without referencing sex is explained... how exactly? > I’m infertile, so “sex is about reproduction” makes me chuckle a bit, for example. I am now infertile too; doesn’t change the fact that I know which one of only two kinds of gametes (“sex” cells) my body could produce.

> And the distinction among “man,” “woman,” and “non-binary” without referencing sex is explained... how exactly? No one said they're not related concepts. Just that they're not the same . The term "butch", for example, tends to describe a female with more manly outward presentation, where "manly" describes "characteristics generally associated by society with males". Short hair isn't an inherently male thing; it's f…

are leg amputees no longer members of a bipedal species? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#125

Post by Pfhreak »

empthought wrote: post #113
ceejayoz wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And for most people, “man” and “male” are synonyms. OK. If you call someone gay in the 1800s, it'll probably not mean the same thing as doing it today. Terms change; distinctions between similar terms get made as they're needed. > Identity is irrelevant to reproductive role, and sex is about reproduction, and gender is about sex. There's several bald assertions in there. I'm infertile, so "sex is about reproduction…

> Terms change; distinctions between similar terms get made as they’re needed. And the distinction among “man,” “woman,” and “non-binary” without referencing sex is explained... how exactly? > I’m infertile, so “sex is about reproduction” makes me chuckle a bit, for example. I am now infertile too; doesn’t change the fact that I know which one of only two kinds of gametes (“sex” cells) my body could produce.

> And the distinction among “man,” “woman,” and “non-binary” without referencing sex is explained... how exactly?

It's the difference between "maleness" and "manliness". Those words are clearly related, but they mean different things. See also: "femaleness" vs. "feminine".

The latter term in either case describes cultural behaviors, clothing, accepted roles, and a whole bunch of other stuff that isn't the same as their sex. Someone can be very "manly" independent of whether they have XY chromosomes, for instance. I find it useful to be able to describe the cultural elements as one's gender separately from what organs or genes they have under the hood.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#126

Post by ceejayoz »

empthought wrote: post #124
ceejayoz wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And the distinction among “man,” “woman,” and “non-binary” without referencing sex is explained... how exactly? No one said they're not related concepts. Just that they're not the same . The term "butch", for example, tends to describe a female with more manly outward presentation, where "manly" describes "characteristics generally associated by society with males". Short hair isn't an inherently male thing; it's f…

are leg amputees no longer members of a bipedal species? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

But that's the point, isn't it?

"Sex is about reproduction" is as silly as "people who lose their legs aren't humans", because both are clearly untrue.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#127

Post by empthought »

ceejayoz wrote: post #126
empthought wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

are leg amputees no longer members of a bipedal species? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

But that's the point, isn't it? "Sex is about reproduction" is as silly as "people who lose their legs aren't humans", because both are clearly untrue.

Yes, people who lose their ability to walk are still human, and people who lose their ability to produce sperm are still male.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#128

Post by musingsole »

trans-stealth wrote: post #46
jcims wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have often heard it in a sense of "should not be catered to but rather given medical help". The thing i worry about is that folks that go through all of the physical and emotional (and financial) stress of transitioning only to find that it doesn’t soothe the pain are likely to perceive a social pressure to keep a lid on it. The current trend of acceptance is obviously good but it seems likely our approach to tre…

> The thing i worry about is that folks that go through all of the physical and emotional (and financial) stress of transitioning only to find that it doesn’t soothe the pain are likely to perceive a social pressure to keep a lid on it. Nope, "de-transitioners" are very welcome in the trans community, to tell their story, to hang out, to help others. There's absolutely nothing that should force them to not speak out…

I find your broad "nope" troubling. How are you so comfortable speaking for the entirety of several others' experiences? (While problematic) the nature of the gp's claim would be impossible to prove or disprove without mind reading powers. Even if many or most trans-accepting groups make an active effort to support those with regrets...the social pressures for someone to not voice those regrets are blatantly obvious.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#130

Post by Pfhreak »

School-Cotton wrote: post #103
joshuamorton wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll ask the question a different way: when people perceive and address you like a man, do you feel any reason to disagree with how they address or perceive you?

No, I don’t. Is that really the entirety of “identifying as” something - not disagreeing with other people identifying you as that?

That's one means to understand your identity.

Generally, if you'd say, "I am a ..." then you identify as that.

You might say, for instance, I am a Catholic. Or I am a Muslim. I am a man. I am a woman. I am a chef. I am a zookeeper. I am a gun owner. I am a pacifist. I am a vegetarian. etc. etc.

Whatever your "I am a ..." statements are, they are how you identify. You will find some of them you feel strongly about and others you don't really care about but you might say them anyways. "I am a man" might not be a statement that carries a lot of feelings with it for you, whereas something like, "I am an atheist" might. Some folks are proud Republicans or Democrats, others aren't.

Others might disagree with how you identify. They might say, "Well, you might think you are a Christian, but...", and that's where we all have to collectively decide where we should be policing identities of others.

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