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Adding a metre between meals boosts vegetarian appeal – study

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Re: Adding a metre between meals boosts vegetarian appeal – study

#81
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The energy per calorie is a very good insight that I hadn’t considered. I do agree that beef is a significant culprit and I tend to eat it rarely. But the environmental concern isn’t a consideration in my diet because it’s not something I’m willing to compromise on. Not only because I like meat, but for the fact that it’s a nutritional powerhouse that would take too much effort to emulate with a vegetarian diet. I tr…

I think you saying it’s too much effort to replace beef is really just covering for you liking beef. Which is totally fine, but it’s really not much effort to replace beef out of your diet

I referred to not being willing to replace meat in general, not beef specifically, due to the difficulty in getting a similar mix of nutrients, not to mention things that you can't get from vegetables, period. Here's a small list [https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/7-nutrients-you-cant-ge...] but there are plenty more. Sure, some of them are non-essential but those are pretty damn useful for general health, cognitive performance, and athletics.

Moreover, some of us respond poorly to carbs in terms of weight management and general well-being. I have ADHD and and a carb-heavy diet really messes with my symptoms. There aren't really any plants that provide enough protein without including a significantly greater amount of carbs so getting all of my calories from plants is a non-starter.

I forgot to elaborate on the emissions/calorie issue in my comment (there's that ADHD). The link in the parent shows that many animal-based foods compare favorably with popular vegetables using the emissions/calorie metric. Direct link to the chart: https://img.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_1024w/2010-2019/Wash...

It feels good to see some vindication on the animal farming emissions issue. It's a huge positive that we can lower our emissions footprint without resorting to a fully plant-based diet.

Re: Adding a metre between meals boosts vegetarian appeal – study

#83
post #79
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quick googling: “ Livestock takes up nearly 80% of global agricultural land, yet produces less than 20% of the world’s supply of calories” It’s not just about emissions. It’s also about the massive amount of land required to produce meat vs. crops for human consumption. Re: cutting out meat vs. driving, only one of those activities is necessary to survive for the very high percentage of the population who don’t have…

But how much of that agricultural land is pastures unsuitable for growing things for human consumption? You can probably give corn to people instead of cows in the US (yay more HFCS!) but you can't ask the sheep and goat herders to graze themselves.

Also the vast scrubland used for ranching in the western-US is not a great place for agriculture due to water availability.

Re: Adding a metre between meals boosts vegetarian appeal – study

#84
post #64
post #2

> Meat-heavy diets not only risk our health but that of the planet, as livestock farming on a massive scale destroys habitats and generates greenhouse gases. Well that's a bit over the top... Seems like they could have stuck with the "vegetables are good for you" line and had just as relevant of an article.

> Meat-heavy diets not only risk our health That meat is bad for our health is a myth perpetuated by the health industry, as well as by bad research that isn't accounting for processed meat vs. high quality unprocessed meat, nor do the studies account for confounding factors like other unhealthy food that many meat eaters eat. Dr. Georgia Ede is someone to look up on YouTube who's been spending her time debunking bad…

Switching to "allowing animals to roam" doesn't seem remotely viable or likely path in the current state of the world. There just doesn't seem to be any incentive which can compete with the maximization of profit.

Re: Adding a metre between meals boosts vegetarian appeal – study

#85
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think it is controversial. I thought the huge environmental impact of meat eating was common knowledge.

Isn't it rather exaggerated? Doesn't agriculture as a whole cause around 11% of emissions but car driving and heating/cooling causes around 30%? So if we all stopped eating meat we could cut emissions but a couple of % but if we all stopped driving and turned our heating down/up we could actually make a real difference? Edited with real numbers from https://www.c2es.org/content/international-emissions/

Even in your exam it's not "either/or"- we need to get everything down a notch because realistically we not getting to 0% anywhere

Re: Adding a metre between meals boosts vegetarian appeal – study

#86
post #80
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And as you well know, no one is suggesting that, so why is it worth to mention?

Pretty sure the parent comment was suggesting that. Hé even said “it’s what vegetarians do”.

Cows raised for beef are almost always fed corn and soy in feedlots, not let out to pasture to graze on grass.

Re: Adding a metre between meals boosts vegetarian appeal – study

#87
post #35

A pound of meat isn't the same as a pound of carrots. In case you're wondering about climate impact per calorie instead of per pound/kg, here's an interesting article from the Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/food/vegetarian-or-... I see a lot of these charts that a pound of beef vs carrots. Just seems dumb, I would have to eat far more than a pound of carrots to match the calories of a pound…

Calorie counts are better, but still gloss over all the nutritional differences between e.g. beef and carrots. Comparing ingredients piecemeal when they aren't nearly perfect substitutes doesn't make very much sense. If you reduced your meat intake by 1kg of beef per week or month, what would you replace it with to sustain your nutrition? It seems like it would be a fairer comparison to drum up reasonable examples of…

To that point you could simplify since both diets would have a lot in common. A salad, steak, and potatoes meal becomes salad, mushroom, and potatoes. So it's important to talk about what "substitutes" are.

Re: Adding a metre between meals boosts vegetarian appeal – study

#88
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you saying it’s too much effort to replace beef is really just covering for you liking beef. Which is totally fine, but it’s really not much effort to replace beef out of your diet

I referred to not being willing to replace meat in general, not beef specifically, due to the difficulty in getting a similar mix of nutrients, not to mention things that you can't get from vegetables, period. Here's a small list [ https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/7-nutrients-you-cant-ge... ] but there are plenty more. Sure, some of them are non-essential but those are pretty damn useful for general health, cogni…

The thing is, when switching from an omnivore diet to a plant-based diet, meat is not replaced by tomatoes and broccolis (or vegetables in general), it is replaced by tofu, beans, lentils, rice, nuts, etc. which are all at the bottom of the list your linked.

Re: Adding a metre between meals boosts vegetarian appeal – study

#89
post #67
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I eat high fat, high quality steak and kale - that's all. It's pretty easy. I find it odd that meat is being described as or associated with a craving though. I've never craved plants or other foods. I'm at 67 hours of a planned 72 hour water fast and I'm not craving food, nor hungry, it's easy once you get past the first day or two to continue for 5-10+ days so long as supplementing for electrolytes. I'm curious wha…

Did you have any trouble with a longer fast on your first attempt? I do intermittent fasting and have gotten to 24 bracketed by evening meals. I can’t seem to fall asleep when I am hungry but find it very easy to skip breakfast and lunch. It’s true for me that after like 12 hours the hunger goes away and it becomes easy to go past the 16 hours that’s prescribed for IF. But the problem is that I start to get jittery f…

I'll share what I know and ask what I can.

My longest fast was 10 days. The first time I fasted what I discovered was it was my mind telling me I was hungry, not my body. There's a pizza chain where I live called Pizza Pizza, bright orange background with white lettering. It was a 3 day fast and on the second day as I was walking that big bright sign around dinner popped up into my head, and I was like "Oh, I'll have pizza tonight for dinner." And then I realized I wasn't hungry. It taught me that we develop mental triggers, reminders, for when to eat - and that's pretty much why advertising works to manipulate us, and it does it very well; many if not most people are driven by their ego mind constantly being on and are disconnected from feeling their body properly - signals like hunger, etc. We get trained young to eat foods that don't make us feel well, and the mind then over time pulls our attention and connection to our body away from us. You may have some of this ego mind thought patterns to clear, that's telling you very strongly that you need to eat "or else you'll die" - instead of being able to relax and trust that (unless you're underweight) that your body will simply switch to energy in your fat reserves.

When fasting what happens really depends on what your diet is beforehand. If it's ketogenic then you're not also having to deal with the transition to your brain burning ketones. What's your normal diet, and do you take electrolyte supplement? Perhaps too personal however I'm curious if you take any neurotransmitter altering medications that may be preventing your brain from shifting, transitioning as easily? Feel free to email me instead matt@engn.com or just not answer that but it potentially is a factor.

It's quite common for people's sleep to get greatly disrupted for at least the first few nights which is for a few reasons. It may be disconcerting to have sleep disrupted, with potentially very vivid dreams, and transitioning into a different sleep schedule that you're not used to. One reason is inflammation level is going down in your brain, and arguably it's functioning better - inflammation has a depressant effect, so when there's a numbing or "calming" of processes.

The difficulty you mention is more likely related to withdrawal/irritability from foods you're dependant on/addicted to than the increase in adrenaline and norepinephrine that your body produces when fasting - which will make your mind faster and sharper; makes sense for this to have evolved to be a thing so if you don't have access to food and need to have a sharp mind for hunting, etc. Similarly you burn more calories when fasting than you'd burn if eating food, once again - needing more energy so you can have more energy to find your next food supply. This increased drive could make withdrawal more irritating as well.

Do you eat wheat, dairy, soy, sugars and/or carbohydrates? Wheat for some people literal acts like an opiate, so you're literally going through withdrawal. The rest of the foods I mention are highly inflammatory, and through that depressant effect people are self-medicating to "calm" or suppress their nervous system. It's possible that there's underlying emotion, unhealed/unprocessed trauma, that wants to process but perhaps you don't have the insight or skill developed yet - or it's built up past a point you can tolerate processing it, and so using food as a suppressant; this is why people consider things like MDMA and Ayahuasca ceremonies as medicines because it helps a person more easily access and process deeply suppressed emotions and trauma that was too strong to process otherwise at the time it occurred, or over time perhaps different stresses built up while ego mind suppressed/repressed and/or found different healthy or unhealthy coping mechanisms - alcohol, tobacco, certain foods, etc.

Have you tried just staying up and distracting yourself? You'll eventually fall asleep once tired. Or is it that you get too agitated and go to food and that instantly comforts you?

Here's a ~30 mins video by Dr. Jason Fung that may give you some more insights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIuj-oMN-Fk

I can potentially offer more tips and tricks once I know what your regular diet consists of.

Sorry for the delay in commenting, dang at some point rate limited how often I can post..

Re: Adding a metre between meals boosts vegetarian appeal – study

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting how your response to the point that farming plants is far more efficient and sustainable than farming animals is "but some vegetable farms are bad for the environment, too!"

Mixed permaculture habitats that mimic nature and incorporate animals are sustainable. The vegatarian mafia would be happy with endless rows of unsustainable conventional monoculture agriculture, I know this because of the blank look so many vegans have give me when I start to talk about permaculture. You're a hypocrite.

You've accused me of hypocrisy based on your claimed experiences with other people. How charming.

In any case, sure, sustainable animal farms exist. Could they meet the meat demands of the US? Popular consensus is no, and [0] lists many authorities who urge a reduction in meat consumption, but I'd be happy for you to convince me otherwise.

[0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_meat...

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