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Fungus at Chernobyl absorbs nuclear radiation via radiosynthesis

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Re: Fungus at Chernobyl absorbs nuclear radiation via radiosynthesis

#91

Post by [deleted] »

gus_massa wrote: post #78
raven105x wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, I’d argue that most “life” (in the sense of our Eucledian definition of it) relies on exceeding the capabilities of its substrates via emergent properties - at least from the perspective of our current infantile understanding of the universe. Photosynthesis is so efficient because electrons jump multi-molecule gaps due to quantum effects, as we’ve found only a few years ago. The theory that most biol…

> Photosynthesis is so efficient because electrons jump multi-molecule gaps due to quantum effects, as we’ve found only a few years ago. That's true, but is a short lived and very local effect. > The theory that most biological brains heavily leverage quantum processes is rapidly gaining ground as well [...] No, there is only some handwaving. It's impossible to keep the quantum coherence in a system that weight 1.5kg…

[deleted]

Re: Fungus at Chernobyl absorbs nuclear radiation via radiosynthesis

#92

Post by dnautics »

Hnrobert42 wrote: post #82
barbegal wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading the paper again, I made a mistake in my comment above. The mass attenuation coefficient was at 10keV not 100MeV. Water has a mass attenuation coefficient of about 5cm^2/g at 10keV. Table 1 [1] in the paper shows the true comparison with water at 100 MeV where it can be seen that there is not a large difference. On a weight basis stainless steel outperforms the fungus. [1] https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.11…

Maybe it’s because you have to ship stainless steel from Earth. Maybe the mass of the fungus can be grown from CO2 from respiration. The carbon originally coming from food, which has to be shipped up. Lots of maybes, but you know, maybe...

> Maybe the mass of the fungus can be grown from CO2 from respiration.

That's not a thing. Fixing carbon to a usable form [0] using "general biological energy source" to the carbon pool is extremely difficult (there are only four and a half, counting c3 vs c4 as a half, pathways known) and requires complex machinery to achieve.

[0] assimilating carbon dioxide in general is not difficult, even humans do it but it does not enter the general carbon pool and is effectively only transiently converted out of CO2, and net does not contribute to biomass.

Re: Fungus at Chernobyl absorbs nuclear radiation via radiosynthesis

#93

Post by qubex »

gus_massa wrote: post #78
raven105x wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, I’d argue that most “life” (in the sense of our Eucledian definition of it) relies on exceeding the capabilities of its substrates via emergent properties - at least from the perspective of our current infantile understanding of the universe. Photosynthesis is so efficient because electrons jump multi-molecule gaps due to quantum effects, as we’ve found only a few years ago. The theory that most biol…

> Photosynthesis is so efficient because electrons jump multi-molecule gaps due to quantum effects, as we’ve found only a few years ago. That's true, but is a short lived and very local effect. > The theory that most biological brains heavily leverage quantum processes is rapidly gaining ground as well [...] No, there is only some handwaving. It's impossible to keep the quantum coherence in a system that weight 1.5kg…

> That’s true, but only local and short lived and very local effect.

And critically for my argument, photosynthesis works (less efficiently) even when this effect is absent. It’s not a mystery ingredient that makes the whole thing work.

Re: Fungus at Chernobyl absorbs nuclear radiation via radiosynthesis

#94

Post by BurningFrog »

qubex wrote: post #52

What’s astonishing is not the ability to block radiation (after all, biology will always defer to chemistry first, and physics second—there’s no way biology can come up with something that exceeds the capabilities of its substrates) but rather life’s way of rapidly adapting to make use of whichever energy source it can find to eke out an energy budget to thrive on. P.S. Who else heard Dr Ian Malcom say “ Life... find…

Earth has always been radioactive, so my guess is that this is an ancient ability rarely used/seen, not something that evolved since 1986.

Re: Fungus at Chernobyl absorbs nuclear radiation via radiosynthesis

#95

Post by raverbashing »

acidburnNSA wrote: post #84
raverbashing wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right of course, but the effects you're describing are kind of what I meant Yes, I don't think there is a magic material that will perfectly resonate with high energy gamma rays. But evolution might be able to figure it out. Maybe "resonance" is more specific, and "interaction" is better. My criticism was more to the " you need thick material to stop radiation" whereas the answer is more "we need thick materi…

Just quick response on the last point: Photofission reactions happen all the time in places like nuclear reactors. There are no materials that I'm aware of that photofission explosively. The photofission reactions are generally very rare compared to all the other reactions. Heck, natural uranium in your kitchen counter spontaneously fissions all the time but that doesn't lead to an explosion because 1 million atoms i…

Agree, go boom is a bit of an exaggeration, I meant that you probably don't want materials that undergo fission while absorbing your radiation

Re: Fungus at Chernobyl absorbs nuclear radiation via radiosynthesis

#96

Post by qubex »

walleeee wrote: post #77
qubex wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m glad you made this point, because it allows me to issue a cautionary word to those dualists who think that somehow the mind is something disjoint from the brain.

Yes, I'm glad you mention that; unfortunately I think sometimes the idea that causation may be multi-dimensional (in other words, that there is not necessarily a single implicative model capable of wholly explaining all things) gets mistaken for some sort of dualism. But that view does not imply that mind and body are disjoint, are separate "essences", etc.

“Minds are what brains do, like beats are what hearts do” is my favourite summary of that.

Re: Fungus at Chernobyl absorbs nuclear radiation via radiosynthesis

#98

Post by lowdose »

dnautics wrote: post #92
Hnrobert42 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it’s because you have to ship stainless steel from Earth. Maybe the mass of the fungus can be grown from CO2 from respiration. The carbon originally coming from food, which has to be shipped up. Lots of maybes, but you know, maybe...

> Maybe the mass of the fungus can be grown from CO2 from respiration. That's not a thing. Fixing carbon to a usable form [0] using "general biological energy source" to the carbon pool is extremely difficult (there are only four and a half, counting c3 vs c4 as a half, pathways known) and requires complex machinery to achieve. [0] assimilating carbon dioxide in general is not difficult, even humans do it but it does…

Zeolites can do this. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeolite

Re: Fungus at Chernobyl absorbs nuclear radiation via radiosynthesis

#100

Post by DuskStar »

Hnrobert42 wrote: post #82
barbegal wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading the paper again, I made a mistake in my comment above. The mass attenuation coefficient was at 10keV not 100MeV. Water has a mass attenuation coefficient of about 5cm^2/g at 10keV. Table 1 [1] in the paper shows the true comparison with water at 100 MeV where it can be seen that there is not a large difference. On a weight basis stainless steel outperforms the fungus. [1] https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.11…

Maybe it’s because you have to ship stainless steel from Earth. Maybe the mass of the fungus can be grown from CO2 from respiration. The carbon originally coming from food, which has to be shipped up. Lots of maybes, but you know, maybe...

Either you ship steel, or you ship biological material - you're shipping things either way. (And if you can do ISRU, then steel or just plain cast iron is available)
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