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Fungus at Chernobyl absorbs nuclear radiation via radiosynthesis

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Re: Fungus at Chernobyl absorbs nuclear radiation via radiosynthesis

#71

Post by qubex »

raven105x wrote: post #66
qubex wrote: post #52

What’s astonishing is not the ability to block radiation (after all, biology will always defer to chemistry first, and physics second—there’s no way biology can come up with something that exceeds the capabilities of its substrates) but rather life’s way of rapidly adapting to make use of whichever energy source it can find to eke out an energy budget to thrive on. P.S. Who else heard Dr Ian Malcom say “ Life... find…

On the contrary, I’d argue that most “life” (in the sense of our Eucledian definition of it) relies on exceeding the capabilities of its substrates via emergent properties - at least from the perspective of our current infantile understanding of the universe. Photosynthesis is so efficient because electrons jump multi-molecule gaps due to quantum effects, as we’ve found only a few years ago. The theory that most biol…

I think you’ve missed my point entirely: the jumping of electrons that makes photosynthesis “so efficient” (which it isn’t—as a recent post here mentioned, it’s tuned for stability) is not in defiance of the laws of physics, but entirely compatible with them.

Only density can attenuate nuclear radiation, that’s the fundamental physical intuition here (which is also absent from the article/video posted). Nothing “merely biological” is going to change that. Now, making use of some of the energy that is attenuated by the non-dense biological medium... thta’s entirely within the biological domain.

Re: Fungus at Chernobyl absorbs nuclear radiation via radiosynthesis

#72

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

0xdeadb00f wrote: post #70
eloff wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, lead blocks radiation quite well. I don't know why anyone would care about that property in a fungus. What is fascinating is that life evolved a novel energy pathway here, this is like photosynthesis but with gamma radiation. I'd love to know more about it.

> I don't know why anyone would care about that property in a fungus. My thought would be the possibility of it being cheaper to produce than lead, possible to farm it. That could mean a more lightweight material for insulated suits and stuff along those lines.

It's unlikely to be much use for shielding for reasons the top comment explains.

The real reason to care is because it's an interesting - almost textbook - example of evolution operating in a challenging environment.

Re: Fungus at Chernobyl absorbs nuclear radiation via radiosynthesis

#73

Post by Method5440 »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #43

>> Scientists are thinking of shielding astronauts and space objects with a layer of this radiation-absorbing protective fungus. This reminds me of Adam Stone's discovery in Cordwainer Smith's Scanners Live in Vain [1]: SPOILER ALERT SPOILER ALERT SPOILER ALERT SPOILER ALERT SPOILER ALERT Adam Stone has basically discovered that the radiation that causes the Great Pain of Space not only affects life, it is absorbed b…

Interesting - how haven’t I heard about that story? I immediately thought about how Rick covers his outpost in screaming Mortys so that the galactic government can’t detect him. Morty pain as anti-Rick is a strange, appealing and disturbing thought... they’re effectively oysters soaking up the pain of the universe.

Re: Fungus at Chernobyl absorbs nuclear radiation via radiosynthesis

#74

Post by ckdarby »

acidburnNSA wrote: post #65
raverbashing wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Density blocks radiation but it's the "hard way" of doing it It's better to have something that resonates in the frequencies you want to block. Given that melanin already works in the UV range it's not surprising that maybe with some changes it works with higher frequencies (though not too trivial neither because of the way quantum physics work)

I work in ionizing radiation transport. We use materials with high electron densities to shield gamma rays. Should we be using a material that "resonates" with gamma rays instead? If so could you provide an example of this working on gamma rays?

I down voted your comment, here is why.

Working in transporting this material I'd gather you'd have expertise related to this.

Could you better explain why the existing approach is used?Can you counter the arguments made by what you're replying on? Is your comment providing value or information to who you're replying to?

Re: Fungus at Chernobyl absorbs nuclear radiation via radiosynthesis

#76

Post by perl4ever »

dogma1138 wrote: post #8
einpoklum wrote: post #5

Ok, but: 1. Is it doable to maintain a 21-cm thick layer of fungus, at all, let alone in space, for a prolonged period of time? 2. Wouldn't it be easier/simpler to replicate this radio-synthesis mechanism in a non-organic setting?

> Is it doable to maintain a 21-cm thick layer of fungus, at all, let alone in space, for a prolonged period of time? Building a living wall isn’t hard, I have one with moss in my flat it does wonders for air quality (even if not actual one just the smell/perception is enough), fungus is easy to grow - feed it shit and keep it in the dark does work. > Wouldn't it be easier/simpler to replicate this radio-synthesis me…

>Insulin while being the first human protein to be synthesized today is still created using biotechnology by using bacteria to manufacture it

An interesting factoid I ran across is where citric acid comes from. I had noticed inexpensive "lemon iced tea" had citric acid listed as an ingredient, and vaguely thought perhaps it's called that just because the citrus source is heavily processed.

Turns out, while citric acid was originally produced on an industrial scale from fruit, circa WWI, due to shortages, Pfizer started making it using microbes, specifically black mold.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citric_acid

Re: Fungus at Chernobyl absorbs nuclear radiation via radiosynthesis

#77

Post by walleeee »

qubex wrote: post #61
walleeee wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Life can't exceed the capabilities of its substrates on their own terms, but it's not clear that life can be fully explained in or reduced to those terms either. Anyways, yes, this is super cool.

I’m glad you made this point, because it allows me to issue a cautionary word to those dualists who think that somehow the mind is something disjoint from the brain.

Yes, I'm glad you mention that; unfortunately I think sometimes the idea that causation may be multi-dimensional (in other words, that there is not necessarily a single implicative model capable of wholly explaining all things) gets mistaken for some sort of dualism.

But that view does not imply that mind and body are disjoint, are separate "essences", etc.

Re: Fungus at Chernobyl absorbs nuclear radiation via radiosynthesis

#78

Post by gus_massa »

raven105x wrote: post #66
qubex wrote: post #52

What’s astonishing is not the ability to block radiation (after all, biology will always defer to chemistry first, and physics second—there’s no way biology can come up with something that exceeds the capabilities of its substrates) but rather life’s way of rapidly adapting to make use of whichever energy source it can find to eke out an energy budget to thrive on. P.S. Who else heard Dr Ian Malcom say “ Life... find…

On the contrary, I’d argue that most “life” (in the sense of our Eucledian definition of it) relies on exceeding the capabilities of its substrates via emergent properties - at least from the perspective of our current infantile understanding of the universe. Photosynthesis is so efficient because electrons jump multi-molecule gaps due to quantum effects, as we’ve found only a few years ago. The theory that most biol…

> Photosynthesis is so efficient because electrons jump multi-molecule gaps due to quantum effects, as we’ve found only a few years ago.

That's true, but is a short lived and very local effect.

> The theory that most biological brains heavily leverage quantum processes is rapidly gaining ground as well [...]

No, there is only some handwaving. It's impossible to keep the quantum coherence in a system that weight 1.5kg at 310K.

Re: Fungus at Chernobyl absorbs nuclear radiation via radiosynthesis

#79

Post by acidburnNSA »

ckdarby wrote: post #74
acidburnNSA wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in ionizing radiation transport. We use materials with high electron densities to shield gamma rays. Should we be using a material that "resonates" with gamma rays instead? If so could you provide an example of this working on gamma rays?

I down voted your comment, here is why. Working in transporting this material I'd gather you'd have expertise related to this. Could you better explain why the existing approach is used?Can you counter the arguments made by what you're replying on? Is your comment providing value or information to who you're replying to?

Thank you for explaining!

Gamma rays interact with atomic electrons and get slowed down via the photoelectric effect, compton scattering, and pair production [1]. Depending on the energy of the gamma ray, different fractions of those interactions will dominate. The ones that matter most for most ionizing gamma rays we encounter work better if there are more electrons packed in. So we use high density materials like lead because they have lots of electrons to stop gamma rays.

No where on this list of tools have I ever seen "materials that resonate with the radiation" so I'm just asking what the heck kind of radiation shielding physical effect is being referred to.

[1] https://fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/lanl/lib-www/la-pubs/003263...

Re: Fungus at Chernobyl absorbs nuclear radiation via radiosynthesis

#80

Post by specialist »

chongli wrote: post #57
burtonator wrote: post #51

There's simply no way that this type of fungus could absorb enough radiation simply because it's not dense enough. If you want to absorb radiation you have to block it which means it has to come into contact with matter. The only way you can do this is to have either a smaller volumetric amount of something that's dense (lead, gold, uranium, etc) or a LARGE amount of something less dense (water, concrete, etc). If yo…

I think the whole framing of this discussion is inappropriate. The interesting thing about this fungus is that it can use the radiation as an energy source to sustain life. The fact that we can’t use the fungus as some kind of miracle lightweight radiation shield is missing the point. Here we have a life form that has adapted to make use of a very unusual (on earth’s surface, anyway) energy source. That should not be…

"It’s an amazing demonstration of the adaptability of life."

Ya. Just as awesome as chemosynthetic life forms adapted for hydrothermal vents.

It's hard not to be dumb stuck.

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