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Mozilla’s Uncertain Future

civilityandtruth.com

231–240 of 405 posts

Re: Mozilla’s Uncertain Future

#231

Personally and strictly my own ignorant and informal opinion, Firefox and by extension Mozilla Corp. was doomed the moment it decided to compete with Chrome by being more like Chrome. Firefox built its userbase by being different than the dominant browser, then decided the only way to not die was to be exactly like the dominant browser except with less icky behind-the-scenes privacy behavior. That was a fundamental m…

Google entered the game later. So according to your logic one should always drop dead the moment s.o. else enters the game.

Besides, without having read all responses to your post, FF is different, or do you think Alphabet would condone a browser that has container tabs and disables a lot of advertisement/tracking out of the box.

Also offering what I had 10years ago, means not being able to to implement new features as quickly, it stagnates development;and on top of that, it will mean less innovation, so you could turn around, crying foul, and say that not enough has been done to be innovative. In my opinion, it is a void argument, a friend to all is a friend to none so to speak.

And let's not forget, Google/Alphabet had Chrome support an old protocol that was deprecated to make youtube work best only on their browser. A move in itself qualifying as sabotage of a competing product. It is only possible because Alphabet controls a lot of the infrastructure, people use(more on that a few paragraphs down).

Mozilla needs money so they make a deal with Google keeping it as the default search-engine, which means giving revenue to their competitors since Alphabet also produces the Chrome-Browers.

IMHO, Mozilla is not at fault here. The everything is free mentality and the economic playing field is. Alphabet, Facebook, Microsoft and Apple are the Robber Barons of the 21st century. Just like Rockefeller et all were a hundred some years ago.

We now see first hand what happens if they are not reeled in and not split up. There is an eerie similarity to what happened with the old barons. Thankfully that process gained some tracking in some countries and I do hope it will continue.

Yes I am aware there is Chromium, Iron, Brave, Opera, but I am cautious and wouldn't want to touch them with a 10 foot pole, because the rendering-engine is provided by Alphabet which thrives on information gathered against the users will. All nice products, but my argument here is the same as the one against foreign chips in domestic security products. There is always this hint of doubt. One only has to look at the development-frameworks e.g. Facebook offered for free turning every app based on them into a data gathering tool.

So I can only agree with posters below: FF is superior and more innovative and secure than Chrome and most people wanna be hip, not have to think and that is where the bigger advertisement-budget comes in.

If one screams loud enough, people apparently do believe it is healthy to eat a certain brown excrement while being part of that a huge surveillance botnet that is Google.

//Edit: Here is the source of my claim regarding Youtube https://www.zdnet.com/article/former-mozilla-exec-google-has...

//Edit2: And regarding security and innovation in that area. Google was very innovative. It dropped Certificate Pinning for their Chrome-Browser. The only thing that alerts one do MITM-Attacks if an attacker gains access to a key for signing a certificate. IMHO one more reason to stick with FF or move over. These days people think what Chrome provides is everything there is. I for myself vote with my wallet. Adblocker(because Alphabet also runs an ad-provider, also for other sides), I do not use Google as search-engine and if I must hooktube instead of youtube :)

Re: Mozilla’s Uncertain Future

#232
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

25% seems like much too high a number for the group you’re talking about. I’d be interested to see some data on level of technical engagement and knowledge, but in my experience a large percentage of users don’t even have a clear idea of what a browser is. The reason Firefox has lost market share in my opinion is because: i) Chrome is pushed by Google.com, which has a near monopoly on search ii) Chrome was bundled an…

>The reason Firefox has lost market share in my opinion is because: My opinion is that none of those actually matters. The "one" single reason Chrome won market share was the same playbook how Google Search Engine Started. Speed. I watched hundreds of users, given the choice, or doing so themselves installing / using Chrome by their own selection. It was faster. The user experience was far better. You could advertise…

> I watched hundreds of users, given the choice, or doing so themselves installing / using Chrome by their own selection.

I don't know who you are, but having watched “hundreds of people” installing a web browser sounds a bit dubious…

Personally, I have discussed with a few dozens of websites users and most of them would answer the question “what web browser do you use” with “Google” no matter if they were using Chrome, Firefox, or IE (there are few Mac users in my country).

Firefox users had it installed on their computer by some computer-savy relatives, and most of Chrome users didn't know were it came from (most believing it was already there beforehands) which is a good marker of people getting it bundled with other pieces of software.

Re: Mozilla’s Uncertain Future

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

25% seems like much too high a number for the group you’re talking about. I’d be interested to see some data on level of technical engagement and knowledge, but in my experience a large percentage of users don’t even have a clear idea of what a browser is. The reason Firefox has lost market share in my opinion is because: i) Chrome is pushed by Google.com, which has a near monopoly on search ii) Chrome was bundled an…

> I had an untechnical family member say unprompted last week they want to move away from Chrome but couldn’t use Firefox Mobile because it’s too slow. At the same moment Mozilla leadership was sacking its staff working on parallelising the browser engine. That's because Firefox is slow. I'm saying this as someone who's been using it as the main browser for at least a decade. My latest personal anecdote. Firefox trac…

Cannot verify and I am on Linux for a couple of years and on different hardware during those years. Arch-distribution, so maybe the defaults are what is different here?? Browsing, scrolling(with trackpad and without) startup time, etc. all fine. One thing that I find interesting to always ask: Performance under what circumstances? There are users who have literally 200 tabs+ open and then they complain that everything is slow.

Re: Mozilla’s Uncertain Future

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it hard to disagree with this sentiment. I don't use firefox as my main browser because it's better than Chrome, I use it because it's not google.

That's a tough sell for the vast majority of non-HN users.

Try the privacy sales pitch. And for mobile there is Firefox-Focus. Yes you have to do a lot of typing, but hell do I not miss targeted advertisement in browser.

Re: Mozilla’s Uncertain Future

#235
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of this deal must involve radically simplifying the web and reflect on the EU's sponsorship of W3C via ERCIM. We've seen web tech becoming more complicated all the time, with self-acclaimed "standardization bodies" (WHATWG) acting as fig leaf for Google's take-over of the web. Now with Firefox on the brink to drop out, like all other "browser vendors" (Opera, MS) except Google before, and failing to crea…

How would you "radically simplify" the web without causing breakage?

Let's imagine a browser (UA) that supports basics of HTML (language portion of HTML5) and CSS (e.g. v 2.1).

Yet it has WebVM instead of JS. WebVM is a virtual machine similar to JavaVM but with DOM, CSSOM and layout APIs exposed in it as a runtime.

So if some site needs flexbox in its CSS then it can be included as:

    
If JS then

    
and so on.

This would allow a) keep browser small and maintainable and b) open room for innovations in Web technology beyond browser vendors and comities.

As an example: TypeScript can be compiled to WebVM bytecodes instead of JS.

Re: Mozilla’s Uncertain Future

#236

Personally and strictly my own ignorant and informal opinion, Firefox and by extension Mozilla Corp. was doomed the moment it decided to compete with Chrome by being more like Chrome. Firefox built its userbase by being different than the dominant browser, then decided the only way to not die was to be exactly like the dominant browser except with less icky behind-the-scenes privacy behavior. That was a fundamental m…

I don't know if that was really Mozilla's fault or that Google was always in a position where they could force Mozilla's hand.

When Firefox was at its absolute maximum market-share, Google was already the "start page of the internet" thanks to its search page. They used this and other marketing/bundling strategies (which were possible thanks to Google's resources) to aggressively grow Chrome's market share at an unprecedented rate. Compare Firefox' incredibly heroic battle against IE which, after a decade of advocacy, archived an unbelievably-seeming 30% global market share - with the rise of Chrome, which went from 0% to 50% in a few years and completely obliterated IE. [1]

Sorry, but that was never an even playing field.

It's amazing what they did manage to archive in their position - but with Google dominating both the browser and the way web sites are discovered, they have far more leverage to influence web standards than Mozilla has. I think Mozilla's choice was one of "copy Chrome and keep at least some amount of influence on the web" or "do your own thing and become incompatible with the web that actually exists".

[1] https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share

Re: Mozilla’s Uncertain Future

#237

> But as the number of Firefox users decreases (due to the growing market dominance of the Chrome browser), and those users click on fewer online ads (for example, because they’re spending less during the COVID-19 pandemic), the willingness of Google and other customers to pay the Mozilla Corporation for those users decreases accordingly. > Thus when COVID-19 hit and the Mozilla Corporation hit a brick wall in terms…

Companies are spending less money for ads, some even went bankrupt. People also have less money to spend, or are just careful not wasting it in uncertain times. Though, yes, in most countries it normalizes, but the dent in income is visable.

And yet, Google’s revenue only decreased by 2%, and Facebook’s increased by 11%. I can see Google making an argument not to increase the amount of money they pay to Mozilla this time, but not to decrease it.

Re: Mozilla’s Uncertain Future

#238
post #141

Personally and strictly my own ignorant and informal opinion, Firefox and by extension Mozilla Corp. was doomed the moment it decided to compete with Chrome by being more like Chrome. Firefox built its userbase by being different than the dominant browser, then decided the only way to not die was to be exactly like the dominant browser except with less icky behind-the-scenes privacy behavior. That was a fundamental m…

firefox lost it's market share because chrome was a better, faster, more complete browser. Mozilla didn't need to develop any strategy other than building and even better browser. So they tactically designed a safer language, then used it to build a better browser. It was working as planned, but they just abandoned it. Now they don't have a better browser and I wonder if they'll ever have one.

No. Bigger marketing-budget and better positioning in reaching users. If they use google with a non-Chrome browser they will be prompted to install Chrome because it is better. Some people might have just installed it so Alphabet would stop nagging them. Youtube supported some old deprecated protocol that only Chrome still supported so the users perceived youtube as performing better more reliable on Chrome, and it also gave Alphabet an excuse to say:" This does not happen with Chrome". Slyly withholding the information that Alphabet created this unpleasent user-experience in the first place.

So that smells of deceit, and manipulation to me.

Thus, even if it were true that Chrome is more performant than any other browser, I would not put my trust and security in a company resolved to use these types of actions.

//Edit

Just because I mentioned the Youtube thing twice already. In case you want to have a source: here it is https://www.zdnet.com/article/former-mozilla-exec-google-has...

// Edit 2 Well I just found out that Chrome is dropping/has dropped Certificate Pinning. How is that for improvement of the security of you user-base? FF still supports it.

//Edit 3 There was also a paper trending on HN on how QUIC aka HTTP2 threatens a user's privacy. The design-decision was explained with performance in the paper; I can get that talking about a protocol concerned with speeding up the internet, but coming from a company monetizing surveilance and targeted advertisement, is very disquieting.

Re: Mozilla’s Uncertain Future

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would the EU give even one cent where the C level execs and board members collect cushy pay-cheques and fire the "hard" skilled people? Who appoints the board of Mozilla? What will it take for them to be replaced? Can they even be replaced? It's apparent they're protecting a CEO who in any other organisation would have been canned years ago.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24164834

> In the 2+ years I've been at Mozilla, I think there's been almost complete turnover at the C-level.

Interesting. What was the reason for the turnover? Who evaluates their performance?

Re: Mozilla’s Uncertain Future

#240
post #220
post #86

Revenue well north of $200 million every year since 2011. How hard would it have been to do the obvious thing and build up an endowment?!

I don't think that would have made sense: Mozilla stays relevant by producing a browser that lots of people want to use. This requires substantial investment in developer salaries, or else other browsers get better and you don't. If they had taken your approach, I think they wouldn't have been able to get out Quantum, and then Firefox would be much smaller now, and be even less able to influence the direction of the…

But they only spent a fraction of the cash on developing Firefox features like Quantum that people want, and essentially wasted the rest of crazy projects (FirefoxOS), buying things that their users hate (Pocket), and outlandish C-level salaries. They could have paid the core developers and had the endowment.

If they wanted to do the non-core stuff, that's something that the foundation that managed the endowment might have done with x% of its capital, simply by investing in companies that align with Mozilla's mission.

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