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Jason Fried: Why I Run a Flat Company

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Re: Jason Fried: Why I Run a Flat Company

#112
post #73

It's unrealistic to not promote people. If you run a "flat" organization, you're telling your employees "I don't care that your resume indicates no progression." That's a real career limiter, and it can be perceived as an underhanded way to retain talent. Also, more pragmatically, how realistic is it to have 30 direct reports?

Maybe your title won't reflect your progression, but if you list responsibilities and things learned on your resumé then that would be a clear indicator of progression.

Re: Jason Fried: Why I Run a Flat Company

#113
But what if a young startup company want to use this approach. consider a programming team which its developers are not in the same level of expertise and ability. Is it possible for this team that the manager rotate among team members? Doesn't it lower the performance of the members and the self-management of total team?

Re: Jason Fried: Why I Run a Flat Company

#114
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anyone ever faces this thought-experiment problem when they leave 37signals, I'll be happy to bestow them a non-managerial fancy title of their choice. If someone leaving 37signals thinks they need to have a "Master Programmer" title, they'll get that. Problem solved.

I realize that particular suggestion regarding degrees is a little Mickey Mouse. My point was simply that it is quite risky for them to have to rely on your good graces when they leave the organization. What if you're not around to bestow that promised title 10 years from now? What if after a string of successes, that employee makes a mistake and tanks a product, and gets fired on bad terms? This system works fine in…

What's the risk? That I don't take a job sometime in the future from a short-sighted HR drone who can only judge me based on my resumé? If the lack of an archetypal career path on my resumé is a barrier, it's probably not a job worth having.

Re: Jason Fried: Why I Run a Flat Company

#115
post #73

It's unrealistic to not promote people. If you run a "flat" organization, you're telling your employees "I don't care that your resume indicates no progression." That's a real career limiter, and it can be perceived as an underhanded way to retain talent. Also, more pragmatically, how realistic is it to have 30 direct reports?

Whoa... cultural whiplash. I get that there might be places where this kind of thing is a concern. Really, I do. But I can't imagine applying to work at a company where they'd look at the line on my resume that says "3 years at 37signals" and worry that I hadn't been promoted in all that time.

Re: Jason Fried: Why I Run a Flat Company

#116

I really appreciate the idea of having a career path that doesn't involve moving "up" to management. I'm a developer because I love development, and my own personal hell is managing a team and never getting to code.

Imagine how the engineers at Google think now that they're "back in charge" (/sarcasm) I'm sorry, I know it's fun to bash on managers but they exist for a purpose and asking engineers to be in charge is a burden I don't think many want.

>asking engineers to be in charge is a burden I don't think many want.

if your environment has a significant amount of elements that engineers (or generally - employees) wouldn't want to be in charge for, then you are already deep into the problem and the shortest solution here is to assign managers to be in charge of those things.

The key is to not allow the situation to degrade into creating "demand" for managers. For example, once you create one manager for a group, s/he would want to talk to somebody, preferably managers, from other groups. That burden on the other groups would naturally trigger response - creating managers in the other groups. That starts to structure the information and decision flow the way that rank-and-file employees lose much of the visibility into the product and business and thus lose the ability (and motivation) to take even small decisions, thus requiring even more management ...

Re: Jason Fried: Why I Run a Flat Company

#117
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there's really a difference in employees. Everyone reacts to incentives, and it sounds like 37signals has removed titles with pay. Which honestly, I'd much prefer. In many ways titles are a substitute for flat pay. I'd rather have a flat org (and no titles) with wildly different pay (and extreme bonuses, profit sharing, equity grants) -- rather than relatively flat pay and lots of titles (which tends to…

What they removed is not just meaningless titles but rather all management positions. I, for one, don't want to code my whole life. Something 37signals can't offer me. But there are people who are content to code forever, and I wonder how they differ from people like me.

" I, for one, don't want to code my whole life. Something 37signals can't offer me."

I'd say it's just the opposite. The lack of organizational hierarchy and title means that people can work outside their normal expertise more easily. Nobody is stuck in a box.

Designers pick up programming skills as their interests allow. Programmers with UI ideas can try them out. Both contribute with writing, with workflow ideas, and on customer support. We've even had people completely shift roles from programming to design.

Re: Jason Fried: Why I Run a Flat Company

#118
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You aren't making a very clear point. Are you saying that : "Alpha males will always assume they'll end up in the top spot, so when they choose rules for a situation regarding two competing agents, their choices will favor the agent in with the most authority"? If so, then you are assuming a context in which the agents of the situation can change the roles in which they are assigned permanently. That is not the case…

I thought hapless' point was very clear: "A "flat" structure overvalues the opinions of the loud and aggressive, with little room for more pensive contributors, especially women." Coincidentally enough, Jason leads off the article with an anecdote about a talented woman leaving the company because of their flat structure.

He was referencing a quote, not the structure of 37 Signals.

Re: Jason Fried: Why I Run a Flat Company

#119
post #33

What Jason Fried is expressing is something I've been pondering for a while. And I think we'll (hopefully) see more of it (sorry, manager-types). In my experience, managers in most departments have essentially taken the role of sheep-herders. So, I started to ask myself: why do I need a manager when I work well on my own, making smart, educated decisions that are based upon the ideals and successes of other smart, ed…

How much time can you spare learning exactly what each of those other people are doing and how it might affect your work? For that matter, how much time can those other people spare to explain yet again exactly what they're doing, in enough detail for you to realize how it affects your work? As I see it, much of management's job is to protect me from investing most of my time in conversations which didn't need to happen because they won't pay off.

Re: Jason Fried: Why I Run a Flat Company

#120
"Even as we've grown, we've remained a lean organization. We do not have room for people who don't do the actual work."

That is a priceless comment. It exposes Jason's huge blind spot. Worse, it is on this undefended flank that great future pain may be inflicted. I look forward to the post-learning article.

The underlying premise/assumption is that a 'manager' is not only not doing 'the' work, but they aren't really doing 'any' work. Its a very common meme in engineers, "The company makes money on the code I write, it makes no money at all on this guy telling me what do, it just costs them money."

Let's reason about this using a fairly simple analogy. We will start by positing that we are all rats in a maze. Our maze is, unfortunately, filled with rat dung. We further stipulate that walking on dung would kill us so the only way we can move through the maze is by shoveling the dung in front of us, to the pile behind us and then moving into the space we opened up. All the shoveling burns up calories, if we don't eat we will eventually starve to death. Finally, we add that there is a cheese somewhere in the maze, and once any rat makes its way to the cheese, everyone gets to eat of the cheese. That resets the rat’s hunger level, after the the cheese is located the maze resets around all the rats and process begins again.

Now in our analogy our engineers are the rats. And writing code is shoveling rat dung. And the cheese is a monetizable opportunity. Eating the cheese is collecting money from the opportunity.

In a small company, having everyone shovel as fast as they can, is a great strategy for finding the cheese(s). Some mazes have more than one cheese in them, sadly some mazes have no cheese in them. A manager, whether its the founder/CEO, or someone in that role, is given the opportunity to stand above the maze and see if there is a cheese nearby or in the distance, by seeing both the maze and where the cheese is relative to where in the maze rats are, they can direct rats that have the best chance of getting to the cheese quickly in the direction they should turn, otherwise each rat would be following his/her internal idea of the best way to find a cheese in a maze like ‘always follow the left wall’ or ‘alternate left and right turns’ or ‘leave marks in the dung piles of parts of the maze you have already passed through so that you can pick new passages the next time.’

So the leadership role of management in any technology company, is measured by their ability to get teams to the cheese while shoveling the least amount of rat dung. Good leadership will understand that there are many cheeses (and flavors of cheese, some more nourishing than others) and be able to evaluate the choice of going further for a very nourishing cheese vs going out of the way to munch a nearby, but less satisfying, cheese.

So back to the comment tail … “who don't do the actual work.” briefly.

It is pretty easy for an engineer to recognize a problem in one of their colleagues, even though their colleague is ‘doing’ a “lot” of work, that work is inefficient and thus ‘poor’. Someone checking in version after version of a subroutine, trying to get it correct, when that subroutine is doing something that is provided by the underlying operating system. Lots of ‘work’, lots of ‘check ins’, but someone who had a bit more breadth might have done in a couple of hours what this loser is taking a week to do. As an engineer, one can easily appreciate that this person is taking up an employee spot that could be put to more efficient use by a better quality engineer.

And yet it may be hard for that same engineer to understand that a manager is helping him, and his colleagues, be more efficient by working excellently on a component that will get them to a good cheese, versus working excellently on a component or a technology that does not proportionally have the business value they need to pay their own salaries.

A real world example was a shopping cart company that had, at one time, all of its engineers working on a universal language independent component for presenting product descriptions in over 100 languages and nobody on the team was working on making the shopping cart code play nice with various payment services. Which is the more nourishing cheese? English only and you accept any kind of payment, or any language but you have to have one type to payment card from one vendor ? The engineers were all writing excellent code, using all the latest best practices and the language support module they came up with was best in class, but product was a shopping cart and the “high order bit” for a shopping cart implementation is “can it take money from customers and put it in the bank?”

So when an engineer makes a comment like Jason’s about valuing ‘doing’ over ‘directing’, it can sound like the oarsmen in a galley complaining that he should be accorded higher status than the navigator since without him the boat wouldn’t go anywhere. But the reality is that without the navigator the boat wouldn’t arrive anywhere. Considered in the larger context, the navigator’s role is both more stressful and more important to the overall success of the trip than the oarsmen.

What Jason’s comment misses, and it sounds like a blind spot, is the understanding that you cannot successfully navigate and row at the same time.

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