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Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

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Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#291

Post by rayhendricks »

solidasparagus wrote: post #262
chrisseaton wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most business degrees (graduate & undergraduate) are not recognised BAs anymore. Why does it matter if they’re BA or something else? And recognised by who? And obviously a postgrad business degree is not going to be a BA... because that’s an undergrad degree. I think if you’re saying a MBA from a reputable school is useless I think you’re being really really silly. I see the opportunities these degrees give you and…

The practice of going through case studies and learning essentially a history of failures and successes in business was extremely valuable. The frameworks can be a little academic at times, but showing people how to think about business problems from multiple perspectives is very educational and useful when you actually have to solve your own business problem.

I was a business major for a year and a half before switching to biology. It is worth it to go over case studies and learn accounting, IMO lots of the value gained is through instructer-led group discussion which doesn’t really work over zoom. This led me to actually making a startup and learning much more about how businesses is done than I would have.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#292

Post by non-entity »

WalterBright wrote: post #289
netcan wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well... criticising anyone's degree (even though I also have such a degree) is always arrogant. That's the point we're at though. It has become the most popular degree while simultaneously getting worse in quality... starting from a low base. As I said, I have one of these degrees, and have hired and worked with many people with such degrees. First, I agree that the math and (particularly) the statistics classes are…

Practicing math avoidance is indeed a path to a low paying career. This includes those who get engineering degrees while taking the minimum and easiest math courses possible. Then their jobs get outsourced.

> Practicing math avoidance is indeed a path to a low paying career.

Counterpoint: most software developers I've known.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#293

Post by fortran77 »

jacquesm wrote: post #65
non-entity wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd wager most of them

Whether they'd be willing or not is another matter. I know a few though, people that have very high levels of secondary education working trades or other simple jobs because it keeps their stress levels down.

> working trades or other simple jobs because it keeps their stress levels down.

Yes! People take "simple jobs" like hauling trash or cleaning sewers or welding pipes because it's stress free! Unlike those high-stress jobs at Facebook where you take the free party bus to the office, get free food, drink, gym, yoga, and massages, and even have internal message boards where you're encouraged to post about how horrible you're being treated. So stressful! I bet all of those 10xers at the FAANGS wish they could be maintenance workers.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#294

Post by impendia »

jmull wrote: post #176
jimmar wrote: post #106

I'm a professor at a regional university. Not a big name school, but we have about 5,000 students. We would be bankrupt if we told students we'd only be offering classes online this fall because students, by an overwhelming majority, want the in-person experience. We know we would lose enrollment if we went fully online this fall, and the drop would be significant enough for the university to declare bankruptcy. Harv…

Man, this is very tough. I think the problem is (and I very much hope I am wrong!) that an outbreak will occur and your university will still have the financial problems. And also some more sick and dead people. (All from a US perspective) There's been a crazy notion floating around from the start on this, that we can either keep our normal activities/economy (jobs, businesses, schools, etc) or deal with the pandemic…

I mostly agree. But I have not sensed -- at all -- that there is any "we", that Americans have or will come together to reach a common decision.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#295

Post by kelnos »

watwut wrote: post #240
bumby wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. I think many of the people who weren’t well off only afforded this experience by taking on debt. Besides, there’s more ways than just college to have that “real” growth experience. Military, mission work, peace corps. Hell, I’d even argue these are more of an experience because they aren’t built on the somewhat artificial backdrop of universities that can insulate you from the “real” world without all the…

Military will insulate you quite a lot from everything not military.

... and depending on what you're forced to do "for your country", it might mess you up psychologically. And at least in the US, we sadly don't take very good care of our veterans.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#296

Post by WalterBright »

dghughes wrote: post #182
netcan wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somewhat different take. The student debt problem is not really related to the college format. The format existed in earlier decades, exists in other countries and exists in K-12 education without runaway costs and student debt. It's mostly a matter of policy. The US' method to expand third level education to most of the population was by government backed and/or subsidized loans, without price controls. This caused…

>These business degrees are fake subjects... I went to college late dropped out and then went to college again even later in life. There are many more job opportunities available to me now. But funny you talk about business degrees I found out I lost a job I was qualified for to a person with a business degree. It was just Helpdesk but the business degree person had no IT experience. It was at a large well-known fina…

> You can't shortcut learning because knowledge isn't given it's earned.

That's right. It's like using a lever to lift that barbell isn't going to make you stronger. Training your brain requires effort, just like training your muscles.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#297

Post by WalterBright »

non-entity wrote: post #292
WalterBright wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Practicing math avoidance is indeed a path to a low paying career. This includes those who get engineering degrees while taking the minimum and easiest math courses possible. Then their jobs get outsourced.

> Practicing math avoidance is indeed a path to a low paying career. Counterpoint: most software developers I've known.

The well paid developers I know are good at math and aren't afraid of it.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#298

Post by kelnos »

maire wrote: post #234
LargeWu wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree about the college format going completely online. There is so much about the college experience that is not directly related to earning a degree. It's a place where most people are exposed to new ideas, new types of people. It's a place where lasting friendships and relationships are formed. It's a place of growth that an online experience could never hope to replicate, and that's the REAL benefit of colle…

There are less expensive ways to get the social experience of college. My husband and I both worked our way through college. I didn't get the social experience at school. There is nothing like working for your degree to keep you laser focused on the reason why you are going to college. We were both reasonably paid for working class jobs as he was a machinist and I was an electronic technician. Post graduate was so mu…

I'm pretty sure most/all the people who think that college gives you a unique social experience that you can't get elsewhere are just suffering from confirmation bias, and also perhaps want to justify why they spent so much money.

I went to a top-tier 4-year university, and did develop several life-long friendships, many of which have led to introductions to other people, which have further increased my social and professional circles. It'd be easy to say if I hadn't gone to college, I wouldn't have that now, and, well, that's actually true... but it's missing the point. I'd still be me, and I'd still have the same drive to meet people and take advantage of opportunities. My life would be different, certainly, but I doubt it'd be less socially fulfilling.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#299

Post by JamisonM »

beaner wrote: post #274
netcan wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somewhat different take. The student debt problem is not really related to the college format. The format existed in earlier decades, exists in other countries and exists in K-12 education without runaway costs and student debt. It's mostly a matter of policy. The US' method to expand third level education to most of the population was by government backed and/or subsidized loans, without price controls. This caused…

> At least, these tend to be real subjects that students are actually interested in. I don't think that whether real students are interested in a topic is related to how well that choice of study does for them in the real world. International relations, anthropology, women's studies, psychology, etc., are all real subjects that students are actually interested in. Some small fraction of the people who study them actu…

> "online marketing" degrees are just part of this category, not anything special in themselves.

I disagree in that many of the other topics have a real academic history and tradition, involve the expression of genuinely important ideas. Being immersed in that for years has value: in the facts learned, the overall experience, and an appreciation for aspects of the world that you might not have understood or appreciated before.

The fact that that arts degrees often have a very good return on investment /might/ be because they are a waste of time and irrelevant but it seems like the preponderance of evidence indicates that they are not a complete waste of time. https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/collegeroi/

Pushing students towards STEM and trade schools is probably not a good idea, creating markets that actually work properly and then letting the students sort all that out for themselves seems like a better way.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#300

Post by vkou »

WalterBright wrote: post #297
non-entity wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Practicing math avoidance is indeed a path to a low paying career. Counterpoint: most software developers I've known.

The well paid developers I know are good at math and aren't afraid of it.

Counterpoint: You can get a FANG job, and make it to senior engineer, without knowing a lick of math past O(N).
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