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Web browsers need to stop. Enough is enough

drewdevault.com

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Re: Web browsers need to stop. Enough is enough

#51

Post by lolsal »

From the article/rant:

> Safari is a joke.

Why? I use it daily as my primary browser. I am a software developer.

Anytime I enter a discussion about this, I get a lot of responses that are _completely irrelevant to me_ about plugins or ... rendering? or whatever other stuff I honestly can't even remember. None of that stuff matters to me. Safari is a great browser - it's simple, fast, and the only annoying thing about it is there are sites that will display modals saying I should use a modern browser like Chrome. Get real.

If you dismiss Safari as a 'real' browser, your opinion loses credibility to me. I honestly wonder if you've ever used it, or are hopping on some bandwagon about it.

Re: Web browsers need to stop. Enough is enough

#52

Post by surfearth »

lolsal wrote: post #51

From the article/rant: > Safari is a joke. Why? I use it daily as my primary browser. I am a software developer. Anytime I enter a discussion about this, I get a lot of responses that are _completely irrelevant to me_ about plugins or ... rendering? or whatever other stuff I honestly can't even remember. None of that stuff matters to me. Safari is a great browser - it's simple, fast, and the only annoying thing about…

I agree wholeheartedly and gave up on the article when I read that line. On my Mac, Safari is quick, resource efficient, and does everything I need it to do. I'm sure there are some downsides, but to dismiss it as a joke is ridiculous.

Re: Web browsers need to stop. Enough is enough

#53

Post by Frondo »

blub wrote: post #15
colesantiago wrote: post #4

> Enough is enough. What I don't like about this post is too much emotion, not much action. > If you’re a Google engineer who is still working on AMP, you are a disgrace to your field. Really? Career shaming? That's very low of the author to do. Why are they a disgrace?

Silicon Valley is a really nice club with zero consequences for those that have been screwing up the internet and online privacy for decades. Therefore I don't think it's appropriate to now complain that somebody's calling these people a disgrace to their field. Recently we learned on HN of the revolving door between Mozilla and Facebook, straight from the mouths of former Mozilla/current Facebook employees. They wer…

This kind of revolving door depresses me, and makes me wish that software development had a code of ethics that people would have to swear to uphold.

Going to work for the open web villain is about as bad as the doctors who did the leg work to fuel the opioid epidemic, in terms of harm to society.

Re: Web browsers need to stop. Enough is enough

#54

Post by xet7 »

colesantiago wrote: post #4

> Enough is enough. What I don't like about this post is too much emotion, not much action. > If you’re a Google engineer who is still working on AMP, you are a disgrace to your field. Really? Career shaming? That's very low of the author to do. Why are they a disgrace?

Drew has a lot of action. His Open Source code repo hosting service https://sourcehut.org does not use any Javascript at frontend, and sourcehut webpages load a lot faster than GitHub and GitLab.

https://drewdevault.com/2018/06/05/Should-you-move-to-sr.ht....

https://sourcehut.org/blog/2019-10-23-srht-puts-users-first/

Problem here is, that Chromium and Firefox based browsers use a huge amount of RAM, and keep increasing amount of features and code. Also, new versions of Chrome etc have broken features that did previously work fine.

Then, web developers are adding even more code to webpages, causing web to just feel a lot slower:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21835417

It would be nice if:

- webpages would use less code at frontend

- so web browsers would use less memory

- with less features in browsers, there would be less code to audit for security

- with less code in browsers, compiling browser would require less time

Re: Web browsers need to stop. Enough is enough

#55

Post by xet7 »

ralls_ebfe wrote: post #23
adam_klein wrote: post #3

Just curious, why the author thinks that Safari is a joke?

Is safari free software? I can't seem to find it in f-droid.

Newest Safari is only available for macOS and iOS.

There used to be Windows version of Safari, but it is not updated anymore.

Safari is based on Webkit/KTHML/Konqueror source code, some of the source code is public and has been contributed back from Apple to Webkit. But full source code of Safari is not public.

Re: Web browsers need to stop. Enough is enough

#56

Post by adamredwoods »

lolsal wrote: post #51

From the article/rant: > Safari is a joke. Why? I use it daily as my primary browser. I am a software developer. Anytime I enter a discussion about this, I get a lot of responses that are _completely irrelevant to me_ about plugins or ... rendering? or whatever other stuff I honestly can't even remember. None of that stuff matters to me. Safari is a great browser - it's simple, fast, and the only annoying thing about…

Does Safari still use webkit? So a part of Safari is open source, contrary to the blog post.

Re: Web browsers need to stop. Enough is enough

#57

Post by ecf »

blub wrote: post #14

This is a vicious cycle of Google pushing new APIs to cement their grip on the Web and the web developers chasing fads to reduce their permanent sense of inferiority compared to native developers. You can see that this is the case when you look at Safari which tried to limit features. It's arguable whether that's because Apple limits the best APIs to native apps, or those features don't make sense or because of a com…

> to reduce their permanent sense of inferiority compared to native developers.

On the contrary, you make it seem like native developers all have a superiority complex.

The world of already filled with people wanting to divide us, can we please not try to ostracize one group of developers?

Re: Web browsers need to stop. Enough is enough

#58

Post by rolph »

Frondo wrote: post #53
blub wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Silicon Valley is a really nice club with zero consequences for those that have been screwing up the internet and online privacy for decades. Therefore I don't think it's appropriate to now complain that somebody's calling these people a disgrace to their field. Recently we learned on HN of the revolving door between Mozilla and Facebook, straight from the mouths of former Mozilla/current Facebook employees. They wer…

This kind of revolving door depresses me, and makes me wish that software development had a code of ethics that people would have to swear to uphold. Going to work for the open web villain is about as bad as the doctors who did the leg work to fuel the opioid epidemic, in terms of harm to society.

if you want to call yourself an engineer; or others to call you an engineer then:

>>I am an Engineer. In my profession, I take deep pride. To it, I owe solemn obligations.

As an engineer, I pledge to practice integrity and fair dealing, tolerance and respect, and to uphold devotion to the standards and dignity of my profession. I will always be conscious that my skill carries with it the obligation to serve humanity by making the best use of the Earth's precious wealth.

As an engineer, I shall participate in none but honest enterprises. When needed, my skill and knowledge shall be given, without reservation, for the public good. In the performance of duty, and in fidelity to my profession, I shall give my utmost. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Engineer#Oath

So.. who here is a software engineer; a digital electronic engineer; datasystems engineer etc. Can you live up to the obligation?

Re: Web browsers need to stop. Enough is enough

#59

Post by grayhatter »

dgellow wrote: post #17
grayhatter wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate that something which only exists to data mine, or serve ads is enabled (by default) in my web browser.

Serious question: would you pay for an equivalent service that doesn't mine your data?

If I actually believed that I was the customer, and not the product; yes.

Obviously, that depends on a lot of things, but something that would recommend, cache/archive, catalog things I find interesting/care about. I would be willing to pay for something like it. I already pay for pandora, I'd absolutely pay for something that expanded my knowledge base.

Re: Web browsers need to stop. Enough is enough

#60

Post by rlwinm »

string wrote: post #39
colesantiago wrote: post #4

> Enough is enough. What I don't like about this post is too much emotion, not much action. > If you’re a Google engineer who is still working on AMP, you are a disgrace to your field. Really? Career shaming? That's very low of the author to do. Why are they a disgrace?

I don't understand this assumption that "x shaming" is inherently a negative thing. Shame is an essential social emotion. I don't see what's wrong with shaming people for unethical or immoral choices they choose to make.

Do you want to call people out or change their behavior?

Public shaming may be successful at the former but often fails at the latter. If anything it often causes people to reinforce a position they might have otherwise conceded. The other negative effects of shaming are well discussed in the Jon Ronson book So You’ve Been Publicly Shamed.

If you work on AMP, for example, it’s easy to dismiss Drew’s rant as that of a fanatic. Many people don’t think their work is unethical or immoral.

It’s much harder to dismiss a reasoned argument that acknowledges the benefits of AMP and gives examples of the deleterious effects of AMP.

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