Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus • Hacker News Board

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#221

Post by ip26 » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 6:00 PM UTC

notJim wrote: post #188

ceilingcorner wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trades have been more lucrative than many liberal arts-esque jobs for decades. Awareness isn’t the issue. The issue is social acceptability. Until plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc. stop being a part of the undesirable Other to middle and upper middle class Americans, nothing will change. Paying $100,000 for your kid to study underwater basket weaving at Harvard is still socially superior to running a multi-mil…

Do you have a source for this? It's commonly stated, but I've read that earnings for trades are over-stated. Just googling around, it looks like a plumber around here makes $35-70k, which I'd expect most to be able attain in an entry-level corporate job.

The allegation is that reporting on the earnings for trades have focused on how much you can make as an underwater titanium welder, instead of basic steel welding which makes up the majority of the labor market.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#222

Post by bluGill » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 6:02 PM UTC

netcan wrote: post #32

eric4smith wrote: post #12

I firmly think there is a sea change going on from standard “college” degrees to more practical training that will be a mix of apprenticeship and solid training like air/vac, electricians and online skills, since the vast majority of jobs don’t really need a college degree. This has actually begun already at the high school level. Once again I believe net/net the beer virus will be positive for America in the long ru…

Somewhat different take. The student debt problem is not really related to the college format. The format existed in earlier decades, exists in other countries and exists in K-12 education without runaway costs and student debt. It's mostly a matter of policy. The US' method to expand third level education to most of the population was by government backed and/or subsidized loans, without price controls. This caused…

Is college for 'betterment' or 'your interest', about getting a job. I'm not against the first two, but as a member of society I'm only interested in the last one, and I don't think I should be asked to subsidize your hobbies. If you can't get a better job because of education then I want nothing to do with it.

(I'm also interested in improving science)

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#223

Post by analog31 » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 6:07 PM UTC

paulcole wrote: post #210

ceilingcorner wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trades have been more lucrative than many liberal arts-esque jobs for decades. Awareness isn’t the issue. The issue is social acceptability. Until plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc. stop being a part of the undesirable Other to middle and upper middle class Americans, nothing will change. Paying $100,000 for your kid to study underwater basket weaving at Harvard is still socially superior to running a multi-mil…

Also the physical toll of working in a trade can't be underestimated. My brother is 4 years younger than me, dropped out of high school, and makes a TON of money mowing lawns and doing pools and HVAC work in Florida. That lifestyle ages you fast though. I have plenty of energy to be physically active after work and have no aches/pains to speak of. I wouldn't give that up for the money he makes. And that physical divi…

Indeed, the trades people who are my age, mid 50's, tend to be broken and hobbling. It might work in a country with a strong safety net, retirement system, and health care system, otherwise forget it. Trades people have a double whammy of working in a weak-labor country to begin with, and then having to work for typically small family owned businesses that skirt the labor laws and offer no career opportunities for non family members.

But the trades also include indoor trades such as medical technicians and assistants.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#224

Post by jquery » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 6:09 PM UTC

room500 wrote: post #202

ceilingcorner wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TBH I think this is a feature, not a bug. Over-credentializing coding will limit creativity. If you want a better existing paradigm, consider design (as in the broad field of design, which includes graphic, fashion, industrial, etc.)

After dealing with many legacy projects from "creative" developers, I don't think standardizing on some basic practices would be a bad thing

That might increase efficiency but I bet it would reduce joy. As someone who joined the industry for the joy aspect, not the efficiency and money aspect, that’s not very appealing to me. Besides, I think standardization is already happening and being rewarded in the form of higher salaries for people who are fluent in modern frameworks and practices.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#225

Post by triceratops » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 6:09 PM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #67

eric4smith wrote: post #12

I firmly think there is a sea change going on from standard “college” degrees to more practical training that will be a mix of apprenticeship and solid training like air/vac, electricians and online skills, since the vast majority of jobs don’t really need a college degree. This has actually begun already at the high school level. Once again I believe net/net the beer virus will be positive for America in the long ru…

Trades have been more lucrative than many liberal arts-esque jobs for decades. Awareness isn’t the issue. The issue is social acceptability. Until plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc. stop being a part of the undesirable Other to middle and upper middle class Americans, nothing will change. Paying $100,000 for your kid to study underwater basket weaving at Harvard is still socially superior to running a multi-mil…

Trades are tough on the body. A job-related injury can leave you unable to work. It seems like a rational choice to make the same amount of money typing on a computer, especially in a country lacking a significant social net.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#226

Post by Nasrudith » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 6:10 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #121

LargeWu wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree about the college format going completely online. There is so much about the college experience that is not directly related to earning a degree. It's a place where most people are exposed to new ideas, new types of people. It's a place where lasting friendships and relationships are formed. It's a place of growth that an online experience could never hope to replicate, and that's the REAL benefit of colle…

> It's a place where most people are exposed to new ideas, new types of people. I dunno honestly. Maybe it is different elsewhere, but the college was the most uniform place I have been at. I am not complaining, I liked the experience and did fit in. But it was not diversity in literally any sense of the word.

It depends on the college. In my experience one had a vibrant cultural meetin grounds of myraid intersts and approaches where you see things like a small but visible minority of unicyclists (this is not an absurd example for the generic, a real thing).

While the other was a generic and bland sadness that suck the life out of the room and "binge drinking" is the closest form to a local culture and even things which should be a source of culture like the arts are just another box to be checked on somebody's list for posturing's sake.

Was it religious school which went secular in practice or offically? I know some who suspect that the number one reason for that blandness is former religious school that lost the fundamentalist character which drove out the heterodox and was then left with a despeciated monocultural void.

I think for better or for worse what actually drives the selection of people determines the resulting culture and diversity.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#227

Post by ghaff » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 6:14 PM UTC

JCharante wrote: post #46

epmaybe wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's absurd here in my state as well. We have peak number of cases in one of the biggest college towns, and students are moving in as we speak. I give it two or three weeks before we cancel everything again. As an aside, equally scummy are universities that pulled the rug from under students very close to move in. My sister got kicked out of her housing by the university a few days before move in, and basically had t…

> as rent prices near school nearly doubled overnight. Wait is that really what happened? I anticipated that rent prices would drop because most students would just go home and there wouldn't be a market for people wanting to live in the college part of town.

I know a number of students attending virtually in the fall who are renting near campus with their friends.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#228

Post by hinkley » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 6:15 PM UTC

chrisjarvis wrote: post #153

kingkawn wrote: post #136

The self-righteous smugness on display in this thread about what is valuable to learn and what isn’t is mind boggling. Apparently humility and curiosity about things you don’t know aren’t on the stem curriculum y’all took

Also its much easier to say every should go to school online when the person saying it most likely already got to go to college for real.

I am currently trying to convince a friend with teenagers that the 'going away' part of 'going away to college' is part of the entire point.

Keeping your kid in town is just infantilizing them. And god knows we have enough enfants terribles in the world, and especially in tech.

She's going to end up with a 28 year old son still living at home playing video games all day, while his degree rots away, wondering what went wrong. Maybe I should start logging dates and conversations. "Here it is, July 15th, 2019..."

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#229

Post by analog31 » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 6:16 PM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #9

My son's state university is forcing students to return in person. I fully expect a notable outbreak in some college to start a wave of media noise, followed by all the universities sending everyone back home again. Sucks because students are signing leases, moving crap, buying meal plans, etc, right now. Aside from the obvious safety issues.

Yup, both of my kids are in college, at different schools, and pretty much everybody fully expects that school will last for a couple weeks, then they'll send everybody home. The savvy ones are signing up for exclusively online courses.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#230

Post by hinkley » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 6:18 PM UTC

xwdv wrote: post #48

It used to be the case that even if you took out massive student loans to attend elite schools, at least the in-person experience and networking opportunities would be worth it. Now you don’t even get that. You get some bullshit online instruction that is little more than a glorified MOOC, and when you finally graduate, you have to compete for remote jobs with people from all across the country, and get outbid by peo…

> and get outbid by people with the same skills as you but willing to work for peanuts

More like:

underbid by people whose skills are indistinguishable from yours.

This is the same problem we've always had with remote work. As was explained to me, your salary is paid by someone who can't decide what your value is. If you don't know what something is worth, or in fact for, you might as well get the cheap one.