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Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

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Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#201

Post by chongli »

0xffff2 wrote: post #162
chongli wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is 4 years of living away from home experiencing whatever floats your boat ( frats, independence, parties, sports, friends, etc... ) I’m in university right now. I just finished a term of online classes. I’ve definitely witnessed those benefits being enjoyed by other students but I haven’t had the time to enjoy them myself; my program is simply too difficult for that. The most I’ve enjoyed is going out for drinks…

>The ones joining frats, partying constantly, playing sports and all that must have trivial classes. Either that or they’re already so rich and privileged that they can afford to fail courses and keep going. I disagree completely. Some people are just inhumanly capable of balancing everything. One of the smartest people I met while in school was in a sorority and partied hard . She was also extremely successful acade…

I disagree completely. Some people are just inhumanly capable of balancing everything. One of the smartest people I met while in school was in a sorority and partied hard. She was also extremely successful academically and is currently attending medical school.

She’s the exception that proves the rule. I met at least half a dozen people in first year who partied only moderately and have since flunked out of the school. They’ve moved to other schools with less demanding programs and tried to put their lives back together.

I also met someone who studied for an entire term to pass the MCAT and got into medical school. She seemed like the type of person who really knew how to balance her life though. Not a crazy partier but someone with close friendships.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#202

Post by room500 »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #90
jeffbee wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Computer software development has none of the characteristics of a profession, either. There's no licensure, no guild, no liability, and many people practice it without formal training. The software industry would benefit from moving in the direction of being either a "trade" without the manual labor, or toward being a real profession, but it currently occupies a weird middle ground.

TBH I think this is a feature, not a bug. Over-credentializing coding will limit creativity. If you want a better existing paradigm, consider design (as in the broad field of design, which includes graphic, fashion, industrial, etc.)

After dealing with many legacy projects from "creative" developers, I don't think standardizing on some basic practices would be a bad thing

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#203

Post by csa »

jimmar wrote: post #143
jstepka wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

businesses go through these challenges all the time. the fat that gets trimmed is what makes them better.

I agree that universities should do more to control costs. I'll push back just a bit that trimming all "fat" would make universities better. Where I am, the "fat" proposed for trimming is support for study abroad, music education, research conferences, and other things that enrich the lives of students and (hopefully) benefit society as a whole.

That’s sad, since that seems more flesh that fat to me.

The real “fat” is the admin bloat at most universities. Most schools will continue to be in a precarious financial situation until that fat is cut, imho.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#204

Post by Gwypaas »

fiftyfifty wrote: post #169
bob33212 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The value offered by colleges is not just an education. It is 4 years of living away from home experiencing whatever floats your boat ( frats, independence, parties, sports, friends, etc... ). There is virtually no demand for online only classes above a 5k/year price point. There is a similar situation with private schools. Some of the demand comes from the fact that it is also a babysitting service, forced social gr…

I've come to the conclusion that this is what most parents and students are looking for...a [relatively] safe place to finish growing up. The degree is only part of the equation.

I feel this is the consequence of the American style no responsibilities system. Why on earth should an 18 year old high school senior need a hall-pass to go to the restroom?

Signed a Swede who spent an exchange year in Texan upper middle class suburban public high school.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#205

Post by AnimalMuppet »

doorstar wrote: post #155
ceilingcorner wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trades have been more lucrative than many liberal arts-esque jobs for decades. Awareness isn’t the issue. The issue is social acceptability. Until plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc. stop being a part of the undesirable Other to middle and upper middle class Americans, nothing will change. Paying $100,000 for your kid to study underwater basket weaving at Harvard is still socially superior to running a multi-mil…

College vs. trade school isn't just about money or 'social acceptability', it's also about opportunity. A 18 year old who goes to trade school to become an electrician is going to become an electrician, they are not going to be able to change their minds in two years and become a biologist. That kid who went to college at 18 has a lot more options. They can switch majors, they can take internships, they can get their…

Sure, they can change their mind and become a biologist. But in doing so, they throw away the two years. They have to start college from zero, because their trade-school classes don't translate into college credits.

You can start college at 20 as easily as at 18. The problem is that you get nothing for the two years (except, I suppose, you can work as an electrician to pay for college, instead of working at McDonalds).

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#206

Post by bumby »

fock wrote: post #192
matwood wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know people who went to college, but lived at home with their parents "to save money". In reality, they didn't need to save the minimal room and board fees of a state school; they were mostly just cowards. They are the people that haven't changed at all since high school. They're the people that are afraid of everything in the world outside their small circle. I did exactly that. Lived at home, attended college,…

well, if you look closer, the people telling this bs are actually all coming from a more than well-off-background. Like the person playing in a local band, telling me "I moved out" - me: "nice, but how can you afford that" - "I work as a tutor" - "that 400€ is not supporting your apartment" - "oh, no, my father is paying for that". yessss . I would really liked to have moved out too for the aforementioned reasons (li…

Good point.

I think many of the people who weren’t well off only afforded this experience by taking on debt.

Besides, there’s more ways than just college to have that “real” growth experience. Military, mission work, peace corps. Hell, I’d even argue these are more of an experience because they aren’t built on the somewhat artificial backdrop of universities that can insulate you from the “real” world without all the debt downside

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#207

Post by randcraw »

pgrote wrote: post #18
tyingq wrote: post #9

My son's state university is forcing students to return in person. I fully expect a notable outbreak in some college to start a wave of media noise, followed by all the universities sending everyone back home again. Sucks because students are signing leases, moving crap, buying meal plans, etc, right now. Aside from the obvious safety issues.

>I fully expect a notable outbreak in some college to start a wave of media, followed by all the universities sending everyone back home again. If you are referring to the USA, I disagree. Unless the local county health departments or states require schools to go virtual, I don't see it. If a large public university experiences an outbreak, I don't think they will go virtual until someone dies. I do not think large p…

US state universities have been very risk averse for more than 30 years now. Try to buy or even consume alcohol on campus these days. The story was very different before about 1990, when inebriated students wobbled about campus undeterred with drinks in hand.

When covid case counts mount on campus, there will be huge pressure from media and concerned parents to quash the threat instantly -- something impossible to do without extensive 24 hour PCR testing already being in place, which no school will have.

All it will take is images of one pretty cheerleader on a ventilator to instantly change policy for an entire region and all the schools therein. If enough parents lose faith, school will be out indefinitely.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#208

Post by stale2002 »

netcan wrote: post #32
eric4smith wrote: post #12

I firmly think there is a sea change going on from standard “college” degrees to more practical training that will be a mix of apprenticeship and solid training like air/vac, electricians and online skills, since the vast majority of jobs don’t really need a college degree. This has actually begun already at the high school level. Once again I believe net/net the beer virus will be positive for America in the long ru…

Somewhat different take. The student debt problem is not really related to the college format. The format existed in earlier decades, exists in other countries and exists in K-12 education without runaway costs and student debt. It's mostly a matter of policy. The US' method to expand third level education to most of the population was by government backed and/or subsidized loans, without price controls. This caused…

> At least, these tend to be real subjects that students are actually interested in. The real problem is "Online Marketing" degrees, or most business degrees excepting accounting and finance.

I don't think that the data doesn't really support your conclusion.

I would define "success" or "usefulness" on the basis of something measurable, such as average starting salaries for a given major.

Even if business degrees are "fake" subjects, I believe they have higher average outcomes/starting salaries than most humanities majors.

Seeing as outcome and job opportunities are the real thing that the customers (students) care about, it makes the most sense to look at the actual outcomes, using a measurable metric.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#209

Post by drdeadringer »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #67
eric4smith wrote: post #12

I firmly think there is a sea change going on from standard “college” degrees to more practical training that will be a mix of apprenticeship and solid training like air/vac, electricians and online skills, since the vast majority of jobs don’t really need a college degree. This has actually begun already at the high school level. Once again I believe net/net the beer virus will be positive for America in the long ru…

Trades have been more lucrative than many liberal arts-esque jobs for decades. Awareness isn’t the issue. The issue is social acceptability. Until plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc. stop being a part of the undesirable Other to middle and upper middle class Americans, nothing will change. Paying $100,000 for your kid to study underwater basket weaving at Harvard is still socially superior to running a multi-mil…

At the risk of being a Starship Troopers "I'm Doing My Part!" recruitment video, I respect all of the plumbers, seamstresses, tailors, drycleaners, carpenters, &c that I have hired for help.

I know my limits of what I can do. I can sew my own buttons, do a shitty hem on something that doesn't matter. Repairing the plumbing on a bathroom sink I did catastrophic damage too is towards my upper limit; I was able to source replacement material and do the labor myself, but I consider myself fortunate that I was able to do that with only a week without a bathroom sink. Also, don't tell my landlord but now I do have a plumber's wrench on hand.

So I go to the experts. The tailor, the seamstress, the plumber. "This broke, I messed up, you can fix it better, yes next Thursday after 4pm sounds fantastic."

Yes, I understand the pride in doing things yourself. I also see no shame in shooting up a flair.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#210

Post by paulcole »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #67
eric4smith wrote: post #12

I firmly think there is a sea change going on from standard “college” degrees to more practical training that will be a mix of apprenticeship and solid training like air/vac, electricians and online skills, since the vast majority of jobs don’t really need a college degree. This has actually begun already at the high school level. Once again I believe net/net the beer virus will be positive for America in the long ru…

Trades have been more lucrative than many liberal arts-esque jobs for decades. Awareness isn’t the issue. The issue is social acceptability. Until plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc. stop being a part of the undesirable Other to middle and upper middle class Americans, nothing will change. Paying $100,000 for your kid to study underwater basket weaving at Harvard is still socially superior to running a multi-mil…

Also the physical toll of working in a trade can't be underestimated.

My brother is 4 years younger than me, dropped out of high school, and makes a TON of money mowing lawns and doing pools and HVAC work in Florida.

That lifestyle ages you fast though. I have plenty of energy to be physically active after work and have no aches/pains to speak of. I wouldn't give that up for the money he makes. And that physical divide is only going to get bigger as we age.

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