Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus • Hacker News Board

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#71

Post by non-entity » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 2:20 PM UTC

netcan wrote: post #32

eric4smith wrote: post #12

I firmly think there is a sea change going on from standard “college” degrees to more practical training that will be a mix of apprenticeship and solid training like air/vac, electricians and online skills, since the vast majority of jobs don’t really need a college degree. This has actually begun already at the high school level. Once again I believe net/net the beer virus will be positive for America in the long ru…

Somewhat different take. The student debt problem is not really related to the college format. The format existed in earlier decades, exists in other countries and exists in K-12 education without runaway costs and student debt. It's mostly a matter of policy. The US' method to expand third level education to most of the population was by government backed and/or subsidized loans, without price controls. This caused…

> Meanwhile, I disagree that “underwater basket weaving” degrees are the problem. At least, these tend to be real subjects that students are actually interested in. The real problem is "Online Marketing" degrees, or most business degrees excepting accounting and finance.

I somewhat agree. Sadly, I find that of the degrees offered online, they mostly seem to be either the "underwater basket weaving" degrees or the "online marketing" degrees.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#72

Post by toomuchtodo » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 2:20 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #15

tyingq wrote: post #9

My son's state university is forcing students to return in person. I fully expect a notable outbreak in some college to start a wave of media noise, followed by all the universities sending everyone back home again. Sucks because students are signing leases, moving crap, buying meal plans, etc, right now. Aside from the obvious safety issues.

Stanford cancelling on-campus education definitely feels like a major bellwether. It's hard to think of any school better positioned to make it work. Not just because of its wealth and elite status, but because the climate is so aggressively warm and non-rainy, and the spacious campus absolutely has the space (though perhaps not the seating/tables, at least initially) to accommodate all-outdoor classes and activities…

UIUC in Champaign/Urbana (Illinois) is still bringing everyone back to campus. A friend just moved his son into the dorms this week.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#73

Post by netcan » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 2:21 PM UTC

tmaly wrote: post #43

netcan wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somewhat different take. The student debt problem is not really related to the college format. The format existed in earlier decades, exists in other countries and exists in K-12 education without runaway costs and student debt. It's mostly a matter of policy. The US' method to expand third level education to most of the population was by government backed and/or subsidized loans, without price controls. This caused…

Governments both state and federal could provide incentives for low cost trade schools if they wanted to. What is to stop them from granting favorable loan interest or even forgiving the loans like they do for the peace corp?

It's hard to run a micro-policy in a contradictory macro-environment.

The incentives (mostly via credit, but also social incentive) for regular college is already super-high... as is the incentive of colleges that receive this credit as payment.

You would need to overcome that with even bigger incentives... creating the same inflation problem, but now for trade schools. If you don't, trade schools have to compete with colleges funded by the ever increasing student loan complex.

Imagine a country that has a suburban housing policy similar to the college education policy. Contractors get subsidies, donations, grants. Buyers have access to easy, no money down, no question mortgages backed by a government. Prices inflate. Houses get bigger. A massive debt pool keeps growing.

You say: "this is really inefficient. Don't some of you want downtown apartments instead?" This isn't going to work while competing with the other housing system... no matter how reasonable the plan is. Throw in a stigma about apartment-dwellers... your plan is now doomed.

Unless students are paying out of pocket (student loan schemes don't count), then you need price controls.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#74

Post by pjc50 » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 2:21 PM UTC

anonunivgrad wrote: post #22

Let the college kids get sick. They are extremely unlikely to have any serious effects from covid. At least on a college campus they won’t infect older family members. Herd immunity on campus would be reached very quickly. The few with serious preexisting conditions can stay home until that happens. The level of fear is frankly ridiculous. People get sick and people die. One day, we will all die. That is the human co…

There are substantial (but still very unclear and lacking in stats) reports of long term health conditions among even young people after covid.

Besides, by your argument, why should we even have bothered eradicating polio?

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#75

Post by totalZero » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 2:22 PM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #67

eric4smith wrote: post #12

I firmly think there is a sea change going on from standard “college” degrees to more practical training that will be a mix of apprenticeship and solid training like air/vac, electricians and online skills, since the vast majority of jobs don’t really need a college degree. This has actually begun already at the high school level. Once again I believe net/net the beer virus will be positive for America in the long ru…

Trades have been more lucrative than many liberal arts-esque jobs for decades. Awareness isn’t the issue. The issue is social acceptability. Until plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc. stop being a part of the undesirable Other to middle and upper middle class Americans, nothing will change. Paying $100,000 for your kid to study underwater basket weaving at Harvard is still socially superior to running a multi-mil…

Any parent who thinks that way is a moron. Educated uselessness is to the detriment of the kid.

If you want to be happy and healthy in America, you must have a way to make money. (Or your parents must give you so much money that you're set for life.)

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#76

Post by neltnerb » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 2:22 PM UTC

totalZero wrote: post #70

eric4smith wrote: post #12

I firmly think there is a sea change going on from standard “college” degrees to more practical training that will be a mix of apprenticeship and solid training like air/vac, electricians and online skills, since the vast majority of jobs don’t really need a college degree. This has actually begun already at the high school level. Once again I believe net/net the beer virus will be positive for America in the long ru…

I don't know why people use HVAC as a boilerplate example of working-class work. Jobs come from where the booms are. Unless there's an HVAC boom, why would you anticipate a surge in HVAC workers? Not a criticism/denial of your larger point, just an observation about that point specifically.

Climate change? ;-)

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#77

Post by elliekelly » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 2:22 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #53

elliekelly wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you not see programming as a trade? Do you not see accounting as a trade? Nursing? Medicine? Law? Pharmacology? I would consider all of those “trades.” The non-trade courses of study aren’t particularly popular with college students anymore. I don’t know many people with degrees in english or latin or history or philosophy. And the few that I do always planned to go to trade school (law school) so their undergrad…

> I would consider all of those “trades.” Well good luck communicating with other people because is not how anyone else anywhere uses the word ‘trade’. They’re not ‘trades’ they’re ‘professions’. And I would guess you already know this and you’re trying to be contrary rather than you’re genuinely misunderstanding a basic word.

I’m not being contrary at all. Nor do I think I’ve grossly misunderstood the word. Haven’t you ever been to a trade show - a meeting of people from one profession?

I don’t think I’ve used the word outside of its definition:

> 3. b : the business or work in which one engages regularly : OCCUPATION

> 3. c : the persons engaged in an occupation, business, or industry

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trade

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#78

Post by non-entity » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 2:23 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #65

non-entity wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd wager most of them

Whether they'd be willing or not is another matter. I know a few though, people that have very high levels of secondary education working trades or other simple jobs because it keeps their stress levels down.

Yeah thats probably true. There are a few I'd certainly consider picking up if not only so I could manage to do work myself as opposed to hiring someone else.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#79

Post by jeffbee » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 2:23 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #53

elliekelly wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you not see programming as a trade? Do you not see accounting as a trade? Nursing? Medicine? Law? Pharmacology? I would consider all of those “trades.” The non-trade courses of study aren’t particularly popular with college students anymore. I don’t know many people with degrees in english or latin or history or philosophy. And the few that I do always planned to go to trade school (law school) so their undergrad…

> I would consider all of those “trades.” Well good luck communicating with other people because is not how anyone else anywhere uses the word ‘trade’. They’re not ‘trades’ they’re ‘professions’. And I would guess you already know this and you’re trying to be contrary rather than you’re genuinely misunderstanding a basic word.

Computer software development has none of the characteristics of a profession, either. There's no licensure, no guild, no liability, and many people practice it without formal training.

The software industry would benefit from moving in the direction of being either a "trade" without the manual labor, or toward being a real profession, but it currently occupies a weird middle ground.

Re: Stanford cancels plans to bring half of undergrads back to campus

#80

Post by ceilingcorner » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 2:23 PM UTC

totalZero wrote: post #75

ceilingcorner wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trades have been more lucrative than many liberal arts-esque jobs for decades. Awareness isn’t the issue. The issue is social acceptability. Until plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc. stop being a part of the undesirable Other to middle and upper middle class Americans, nothing will change. Paying $100,000 for your kid to study underwater basket weaving at Harvard is still socially superior to running a multi-mil…

Any parent who thinks that way is a moron. Educated uselessness is to the detriment of the kid. If you want to be happy and healthy in America, you must have a way to make money. (Or your parents must give you so much money that you're set for life.)

I don’t disagree with you, but I think it’s an extremely common viewpoint among the Upper Middle Class and potential Ivy Leaguers.