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German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

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Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#61

Post by BrendanCoughlan »

yawboakye wrote: post #49
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #2

If a startup refuses a worker’s council this way and someone already tries to establish it, that’s a good sign to look for employment somewhere else.

I'd argue that a startup, by its very definition, should be allowed free rein and not be subjected to the same laws that apply to the BMWs and Mercedes Benz-es of Germany (and Europe) at large. The benefits of working at a startup are enormous (owing to the opportunity to win equity/shares). It's only fair that there's an equally sized risk to go with it.

Does N26 actually give their employees equity? I don't know about them specifically, but allmost all German "startups" don't.

Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#62

Post by detaro »

yawboakye wrote: post #49
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #2

If a startup refuses a worker’s council this way and someone already tries to establish it, that’s a good sign to look for employment somewhere else.

I'd argue that a startup, by its very definition, should be allowed free rein and not be subjected to the same laws that apply to the BMWs and Mercedes Benz-es of Germany (and Europe) at large. The benefits of working at a startup are enormous (owing to the opportunity to win equity/shares). It's only fair that there's an equally sized risk to go with it.

Since when is "startup" defined by "oppertunity to win shares"? And even if, equity is typically sold as a replacement for lower salary compared to expectations, not as a replacement for workers rights.

Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#63

Post by luckylion »

emn13 wrote: post #60
luckylion wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very accurate. And even if you're making good money, you're paying significantly higher taxes, will usually not own a house etc. Might still be worth it for the benefits, but it should be mentioned.

It's not accurate at all - in comparison to the US . Obviously management having a pay disparity is common (which is in itself interesting, and economically not that obvious - more likely a social effect of a hierarchy), but the disparities in the US are larger. (The US has fairly extreme inequality compared to other wealthy countries, generally regardless of what you're looking at, so it comes as no surprise that it…

> It's not accurate at all - in comparison to the US.

What? US SWE don't make significantly more money than EU-based SWEs? That's news, I'd love to see sources.

Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#64

Post by doener »

The N26 management apparently is doing everything to block this, which is a criminal act by German law. They not only filed several injuctions against the meeting (citing concerns about hygiene standards), but also called for an official meetings with all employees at exactly the time the soon to be Work Council held its meeting today. Now someone called the police to the meeting:

https://twitter.com/worker291/status/1294210928234373120?s=2...

Continuously updated article in German:

https://financefwd.com/de/n26-betriebsratswahl-versammlung/

Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#65

Post by dtech »

the-dude wrote: post #41
dtech wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding the last point, the Netherlands is very different from the US, especially at-will employment states. Once you give an employee a permanent contract, you cannot fire them except for a set of reasons defined by law. Most interestingly compared to US, if you need to lay off people you need to lay of your employees in order of most junior to most senior (seniority in terms of time they have been with the compan…

There is no difference regarding firing wether it is a permanent or temporary contract. In particular circumstances, you have more security with a temporary contract. Disclaimer : I am Dutch.

I don't agree. Contractors are the first to go, followed by temporary employees.

It is much easier for companies to let temporary contracts expire than start the actual process to get permission to fire employees.

Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#66

Post by luckylion »

WJW wrote: post #57
luckylion wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very accurate. And even if you're making good money, you're paying significantly higher taxes, will usually not own a house etc. Might still be worth it for the benefits, but it should be mentioned.

Home ownership in the Netherlands is 69% vs 65% in the USA. Also the taxes actually pay for things like a public health system and police that have enough training to adopt a "talk first" strategy vs the "shoot first" strategy that seems to be so common in the states.

Interesting, my experience is from Germany where it's much lower, barely breaking 50%.

As I mentioned: it might still be worth it, but I really dislike this whole style of "look, everything is the same, only we have X, Y and Z". It's not, there are trade-offs. If somebody likes those trade-offs (e.g. better job security for lower compensation), then they'll prefer it that way, and that's completely valid. But to pretend that there are no trade-offs (that is: to only mention one side of the trade-offs) is misleading.

Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#67

Post by mercer »

sdoering wrote: post #31
arrrg wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worker Councils seem to have broadly similar but slightly different rights and responsibilities in Germany. They are never mandatory, however employees do have the right to form one if there are at least five employees who are eligible to vote (18+) and if at least three of those can be elected (>6 months with the company, broadly speaking no one in an important management role). At least three employees have to take…

It is painting a target, as you said. at least with many employers. also being part of a works council can massively hinder your career, even if officially there are protections in place against such things. but being a works council member myself I can assure you that even the best employers can have very subtle ways. Works council members from different companies talk and some stories are outright scary.

story time?

Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#68

Post by andor »

readarticle wrote: post #5

The alternative to the Works Council should have a representation of employees who are not only based in Germany, but also all other countries, including Brazil and the United States I find it hard to believe these councils don’t have the ability to account for international employees, is this a specifically “outside the EU” issue since the examples given are in the Americas, and not any of the neighboring countries…

The works council is defined in the German works constitution law (https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/betrvg/) that is applicable to companies in Germany.

Anyone who is employed by a German legal entity should be accounted for.

Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#69

Post by carlmr »

arrrg wrote: post #12
arianvanp wrote: post #3

At least here in NL the Works Council is mandatory _By law_ if you have more than 50 employees. I suppose the laws in Germany are similar. and I also suppose N26 has more than 50 employeees ;) A healthy organization should have one, in my opinion. Management being against it is an unhealthy sign. Just so you have some context. a Works Council has the following rights: Right to discuss: they will have a bi-yearly meet…

Worker Councils seem to have broadly similar but slightly different rights and responsibilities in Germany. They are never mandatory, however employees do have the right to form one if there are at least five employees who are eligible to vote (18+) and if at least three of those can be elected (>6 months with the company, broadly speaking no one in an important management role). At least three employees have to take…

>That doesn’t really change that I’m currently still too scared to actually form one at the company I work for, even though I would very much like for it to exist. It still feels like painting a target on your back, even though Germany does not have at-will employment and you certainly cannot be fired or blocked or even just so much as reprimanded for wanting a form a Worker Council.

At one of my previous employers there was a failed attempt to form a worker council. The 3 employees were all fired after being in the company for many years. Management basically put them under constant surveillance and recorded every tiny slip-up.

Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#70

Post by BrendanCoughlan »

detaro wrote: post #62
yawboakye wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that a startup, by its very definition, should be allowed free rein and not be subjected to the same laws that apply to the BMWs and Mercedes Benz-es of Germany (and Europe) at large. The benefits of working at a startup are enormous (owing to the opportunity to win equity/shares). It's only fair that there's an equally sized risk to go with it.

Since when is "startup" defined by "oppertunity to win shares"? And even if, equity is typically sold as a replacement for lower salary compared to expectations, not as a replacement for workers rights.

I think an American reader would expect a startup to almost always offer equity, but it's a language/culture-issue.

In English: startup, the: Early stage company with allegedly high growth potential offering equity instead of cash, based on the idea that will be a good deal if it really takes off.

In German: Startup, das: Small tech-company, usually Berlin-based, hipster culture, offering coolness and alleged skill development instead of cash, also fruit baskets and tabletop football.

Of course the glamour of a German Startup is heavily based on equivocation between those two concepts.

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