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German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

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Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#51

Post by jakobbuis »

luckylion wrote: post #42
lumberjack wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American salary: .... Dutch salary: .... American job market: .... Dutch or (even EU) job market: .... They are not comparable. In the Netherlands and Germany it feels like the only employees who make good money are management. Engineers are never going to be rich from working as engineers. The only way to make it is to break into management, and the odds are against you.

Very accurate. And even if you're making good money, you're paying significantly higher taxes, will usually not own a house etc. Might still be worth it for the benefits, but it should be mentioned.

Citation needed. Most engineers I know in The Netherlands (around 200) have bought their home.

Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#52

Post by engineern26 »

hestefisk wrote: post #47
engineern26 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I am a Software Engineer working out of the Berlin office(now working from home). It's a shit show. The situation seems to be escalating. Wishing this was over one way or another. EDIT: sorry, I misread the question. As a software engineer I am comfortable--the work is interesting and engaging. I think it's mostly the customer support staff who are disgruntled

Thanks for clarifying. What is it they are so upset about?

I am not exactly sure to be honest. I think it's the disparity between the working conditions and benefits between customer support and the rest of the org.

Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#53

Post by zaarn »

eulenteufel wrote: post #8
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #2

If a startup refuses a worker’s council this way and someone already tries to establish it, that’s a good sign to look for employment somewhere else.

In the article the N26 management is quoted: "The alternative to the Works Council should have a representation of employees who are not only based in Germany, but also all other countries, including Brazil and the United States" and "That said, if the N26 team feels that they want to organize the feedback culture in Germany differently via a works council, N26 will of course respect and support this, as well as any…

Not just saving face. Interfering with worker councils is something a court will hammer your face in for.

Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#54

Post by markus92 »

luckylion wrote: post #42
lumberjack wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American salary: .... Dutch salary: .... American job market: .... Dutch or (even EU) job market: .... They are not comparable. In the Netherlands and Germany it feels like the only employees who make good money are management. Engineers are never going to be rich from working as engineers. The only way to make it is to break into management, and the odds are against you.

Very accurate. And even if you're making good money, you're paying significantly higher taxes, will usually not own a house etc. Might still be worth it for the benefits, but it should be mentioned.

Even most blue collar workers I know have bought a house, what are you talking about.

Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#55

Post by ivanche »

lumberjack wrote: post #37
coldtea wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Once you give an employee a permanent contract, you cannot fire them except for a set of reasons defined by law. Americans be like: "Shock! Awe! How would anyone ever hire an employee under such a requirement?!" (Meanwhile Netherlands unemployed rate is ~ 4.3%, and the US one at ~10 - and the latter with lots of under-reporting, e.g. people giving up looking for a job, and so on).

American salary: .... Dutch salary: .... American job market: .... Dutch or (even EU) job market: .... They are not comparable. In the Netherlands and Germany it feels like the only employees who make good money are management. Engineers are never going to be rich from working as engineers. The only way to make it is to break into management, and the odds are against you.

While it is true that US salaries are higher then EU ones, you definitely can get rich while working as an engineer. With disciplined and smart investing, 40 years of compounding interest can work wonders. In some cases in can be even more - I know a few friends who started investing for their kids the moment they were born.

Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#56

Post by lumberjack »

klausa wrote: post #48
lumberjack wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American salary: .... Dutch salary: .... American job market: .... Dutch or (even EU) job market: .... They are not comparable. In the Netherlands and Germany it feels like the only employees who make good money are management. Engineers are never going to be rich from working as engineers. The only way to make it is to break into management, and the odds are against you.

Hm. https://www.statista.com/statistics/424159/pay-gap-between-c...

How is that relevant? I don't care about the relative gap in whatever other country. I don't live in the US (although I wish I did). In Germany, I see average compensation for a SWE 65k€ whereas management at the same company can have upwards of 300k€. Especially bad if you work a tech job at a non-tech company. There is definitely a culture of rewarding management with money and employees with "stability" which means accepting lower pay in return for not being fired.

Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#57

Post by WJW »

luckylion wrote: post #42
lumberjack wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American salary: .... Dutch salary: .... American job market: .... Dutch or (even EU) job market: .... They are not comparable. In the Netherlands and Germany it feels like the only employees who make good money are management. Engineers are never going to be rich from working as engineers. The only way to make it is to break into management, and the odds are against you.

Very accurate. And even if you're making good money, you're paying significantly higher taxes, will usually not own a house etc. Might still be worth it for the benefits, but it should be mentioned.

Home ownership in the Netherlands is 69% vs 65% in the USA. Also the taxes actually pay for things like a public health system and police that have enough training to adopt a "talk first" strategy vs the "shoot first" strategy that seems to be so common in the states.

Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#58

Post by klausa »

luckylion wrote: post #46
klausa wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That doesn’t really change that I’m currently still too scared to actually form one at the company I work for, even though I would very much like for it to exist. It still feels like painting a target on your back, even though Germany does not have at-will employment and you certainly cannot be fired or blocked or even just so much as reprimanded for wanting a form a Worker Council. If there's one good thing that's…

> I hope it's bringing more awareness to the fact that "Betriebsräte" are even a thing that exists Isn't it common knowledge? 40% of employees work in companies with a worker council, it's pretty much the default for large enterprises. I think it's pretty accurate regarding career effect. Worker Council members are generally much more union-involved, which employers obviously don't like too much. On the other hand: a…

>Isn't it common knowledge? 40% of employees work in companies with a worker council, it's pretty much the default for large enterprises.

Among german-native workforce? Probably. Among the huge swaths on immigrants in Berlin's startup scene? Absolutely not.

Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#59

Post by moooo99 »

lumberjack wrote: post #37
coldtea wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Once you give an employee a permanent contract, you cannot fire them except for a set of reasons defined by law. Americans be like: "Shock! Awe! How would anyone ever hire an employee under such a requirement?!" (Meanwhile Netherlands unemployed rate is ~ 4.3%, and the US one at ~10 - and the latter with lots of under-reporting, e.g. people giving up looking for a job, and so on).

American salary: .... Dutch salary: .... American job market: .... Dutch or (even EU) job market: .... They are not comparable. In the Netherlands and Germany it feels like the only employees who make good money are management. Engineers are never going to be rich from working as engineers. The only way to make it is to break into management, and the odds are against you.

Yes, these are very different job markets, and totally different markets in general with a very different cost of living. If you want to compare the job markets, you'd also have to take that into consideration.

The main reason why software engineers in the US make more on average are the FAANG companies and VC backed startups that pay insane salaries for their employees, primarily in the Bay Area with extremely high cost of living.

I don't think an entry level Google engineer making $120k living in the Bay Area can afford a better lifestyle than me making €60k (before taxes) living in Germany.

Re: German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management

#60

Post by emn13 »

luckylion wrote: post #42
lumberjack wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American salary: .... Dutch salary: .... American job market: .... Dutch or (even EU) job market: .... They are not comparable. In the Netherlands and Germany it feels like the only employees who make good money are management. Engineers are never going to be rich from working as engineers. The only way to make it is to break into management, and the odds are against you.

Very accurate. And even if you're making good money, you're paying significantly higher taxes, will usually not own a house etc. Might still be worth it for the benefits, but it should be mentioned.

It's not accurate at all - in comparison to the US. Obviously management having a pay disparity is common (which is in itself interesting, and economically not that obvious - more likely a social effect of a hierarchy), but the disparities in the US are larger. (The US has fairly extreme inequality compared to other wealthy countries, generally regardless of what you're looking at, so it comes as no surprise that it's the case here). Furthermore, the actual statistics likely under represent the issue, due to how stocks and capital gains.

If you mean to say the inequality in NL or Germany is unreasonably high - sure! But the US is even less equal.

Edit: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/16/ceos-see-pay-grow-1000percen... also looks at older income inequalities, and the development is pretty stark.

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