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Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

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Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#781

Post by imtringued »

throwaway140820 wrote: post #568
msh wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does epic single out two platforms and not also sue Microsoft (Xbox), Sony and Nintendo. Seems like double standards to me.

Can we please have a precedent set, once that starts I am confident other walled gardens will come down too. Also gaming consoles are not an essential part of life, at least not in my country where people usually can't afford to indulge in those luxuries.

Why is an iPhone an essential part of life? Gaming consoles are cheaper than iPhones and you can often order previous gen Consoles like the 3DS directly from Nintendo's online store for an even lower price.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#782

Post by blackoil »

mobilemidget wrote: post #771
rottingfruit wrote: post #752

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason I, and I assume many others, have less of a problem with that is that you can fairly easily still download and play fortnite without the Play Store. As far as I know that’s not an option on iOS outside of jailbreaking your phone.

It's App Store policy and payment handling within apps, not so much about being to install it. I don't like to see trillion new payment providers, I also don't like to see monopolies. It's a very long and big discussion. But I do wonder, can and _would_ you do payments in a non store app with their own payment provider? E.g. the fortnite you have downloaded and installed outside of the play store?

We already do it over the internet, there are many players as payment gateway. To secure it, the payment systems need to improve and have proper notifications, 2FA etc. and not rely on benevolence and whims of the monopolies.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#783

Post by wickedsickeune »

dustinmoris wrote: post #698
mapgrep wrote: post #198

You could argue about Apple's rights, or citizens' free speech rights, or consumer rights, under existing law. It would be an interesting discussion because I think it's a lot more complicated an issue that most people appreciate. But really why not talk about how we think things should work on platforms like iOS? What should the law be? What protects essential human rights, encourages creativity, and allows business…

> Personally, I would argue that consumers should have a legal right to install whatever software they wish on a product they have purchased, including onto the bundled operating system I fundamentally disagree and this is also a misrepresentation of the current situation. If I buy an open operating system which advertises that I can run on it what pleases me then I should have the right to carry out this freedom of…

> if a company advertises a product as a walled garden, specifically claims that one of the things it does is to vet and prohibit apps which violate their guidelines

Could you please show me such an advertisement? I do not really follow Apple, and have failed to encounter it.

Further, what if I'm a user, who wants to purchase the hardware (and even operating system), but does not want the added security. Mind you that Apple has their own CPU and OS which is unlike anything in the competition. Don't I also buy the product for those benefits, and don't I have a right as a consumer to opt out of arbitrary limitations that I have no option but accepting?

In the past, you had no option but accepting tracking cookies in every website, GDPR showed that as a society, we decided to force companies to provide an option.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#784

Post by dodobirdlord »

whiddershins wrote: post #484

All I want is a system preference that says ‘allow apps from other sources than the apple App Store.’ And I want that setting to work exactly as you imagine. And then everything else problematic about this debate would disappear.

If that system preference ever gets added I want Apple to continue selling a version of iPhone that doesn't have it, with no way to enable it and with a promise to never add it in a future update. I consider not being able to sideload software onto an iPhone to be an important feature! I like knowing that if someone malicious with moderate but not extraordinary technical ability gets ahold of my unlocked phone they are limited in their ability to compromise it in a way that persists through a restart. I.e. what any border guard can demand on entering any country I can think of. If I used an Android phone I would destroy it if it left my sight unlocked and I didn't know what had happened while it was away.

I have root access to plenty of hardware devices. I don't need root access to every hardware device I own. What am I going to do with that capability on an iPhone, sideload Fortnite? No thanks, this is the device I use to check my email.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#785

Post by wickedsickeune »

jhasse wrote: post #734
lub wrote: post #719

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's like saying I bought a petrol car but I should have a legal right to fill it up with Diesel or make it work with electricity. It's illogical. The packaging said petrol and so I knownlingly bought petrol. Though it's not really uncommon to modify a car for autogas or electric. Often it's also possible to change the radio receiver to e.g. one with android car. I kinda expect the same freedom to modify other prod…

You're free to jailbreak your iPhone.

Jailbreaking voids my warranty, could be impossible, and disables a lot of features (OS security updates). It is unreasonable to compare this with another app store.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#786

Post by camhart »

mobilemidget wrote: post #771
rottingfruit wrote: post #752

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason I, and I assume many others, have less of a problem with that is that you can fairly easily still download and play fortnite without the Play Store. As far as I know that’s not an option on iOS outside of jailbreaking your phone.

It's App Store policy and payment handling within apps, not so much about being to install it. I don't like to see trillion new payment providers, I also don't like to see monopolies. It's a very long and big discussion. But I do wonder, can and _would_ you do payments in a non store app with their own payment provider? E.g. the fortnite you have downloaded and installed outside of the play store?

The lawsuit is about app distribution on iOS as well as the 30% cut.

There won't be anymore than what the web already has. Stripe or Paypal would likely be popular choices. Payment processors are required by law to be PCI compliant, though that doesn't guarantee they are.

Yes I would do payments in a non app store app with their own payment provider if I felt I trusted the app. It's no different than paying on any website (there's no Apple review process for websites).

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#787

Post by hjnilsson »

ss3000 wrote: post #518

I wonder why Fortnite doesn't also make a WebAssembly version of Fortnight and deploy it on fortnite.com? Then Apple would get jack shit from any sales there, so they can fight this battle with them while still offering access to the game for Apple users. I'm probably missing some esoteric limitation Apple places on web-based games to cripple this use case.

Restrictions on how much data a website can store prevents this. You can't cache 4GB of game data on a website (maximum in mobile Safari is 5MB for app cache).

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#789

Post by ernst_klim »

Sargos wrote: post #490
ernst_klim wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does anyone have any argument for why this right would be a bad thing? Yes, I have. You put unnecessary limits on our freedom to agree on certain contracts. Hence your measures are authoritarian, you try to restrict my freedom. In my opinion it's unethical to restrict people's freedom to make contracts willingly, if it hurts not any third party. As a consumer, I think apple is doing the right thing, and I totally a…

I have to assume you're not trolling but those are some impressive mental gymnastics my friend. If Apple allowed sideloading then you're experience would be 100% identical. You would have the freedom to continue using the App Store just like you do today and have a nice curated experience. Contracts would continue to work just like they do today. The thing is, the rest of us would have -more- freedom as we could, opt…

>if Apple allowed sideloading then you're experience would be 100% identical

1) Apple allows sideloading, you still can use Cydia, they just don't help you with that.

2) No, because read my post carefully:

> As for apple, yes it asks for 30% fee, and it builds a walled garden. But they also offer what others don't: 8 years of support. I'm totally agree to have a walled garden (convenient enough for me), if I could use my phone for 8 years instead of 2-3 as in the Android case.

> Nobody is harmed and everyone is happy.

No. Learn how incentives work.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#790

Post by ace_of_spades »

augstein wrote: post #354
ace_of_spades wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let‘s take the example of an autonomous car. Would you also argue that you have the right to run any software on it? Looking a bit further down the line toward a society with more prevalent and powerful AI there will need to be some kind of certification that the software you are running is safe. It will be almost impossible to enforce this without the help of device manufacturers who will be mandated to only run saf…

We are just talking about handheld personal computers. I don‘t know why people always try to come up with car comparisons when its really about computers, but: You already can modify your car today, including the (engine) software, but have to make sure it is still street legal. I sure can imagine certifications for autonomous cars and their software. So if you can and want to tinker with it, be prepared to pay for t…

I guess the point is that if we are talking about laws it seems that there is a desire to abstract to broader classes of things that are easily identifiable. I was pretty broad and generalized to technology running programmable software.

If you want to stay with personal computing equipment (whatever that may mean exactly) the point still holds if you look a little bit down the line. You want someone responsible for harm that is created by harmful software and as a user you want an easy way to get save software. Both is much easier with an entity curating and signing vetted software.

What is interesting in this case is the question who would be responsible for this and what are the rules that would need to be followed?

I think it is difficult to untangle the vetting position from manufacturing because the manufacturer is likely the best expert on the computing platform. But other arrangements could be tried out. In terms of rules to follow I am sympathetic to some general rules that vetting should follow but much thought would need to be put into what those rules should be. My prime concern would be safety and minimization of great harm. But how does one go about this? Even external payment providers could be argued to be a potential source of harm if they are not vetted and certified. It‘s tricky!

I think a possible solution would be to make costs and revenue for app stores transparent and stipulate that margins should remain reasonable. Maybe set up a developer board that has a voice in the app store policy making similar to how employee representatives have a seat on the board in many German companies.

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