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Apple Music on Android asks user's card details to avoid Google's 30% cut

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Re: Apple Music on Android asks user's card details to avoid Google's 30% cut

#31

Post by michaelmrose »

mrtksn wrote: post #18
copp wrote: post #2

The usual discussion on this topic goes like this: Apple defenders - It is their right to do it, since Android store allows them. Others - Apple is being a hypocrite. While they maintain that app store must be compensated for all the services they do to developers, When given a chance they do not agree with their above statement. I feel w.r.t app stores, Google is User-centric, but Apple is Apple-Centric at the expen…

> Google is User-centric This is correct but the definition of the "user" here is different from the definition of "user" for Apple. In the case of Google, the advertisers and the developers are the "users", and the people who are using the software are the products. On the Apple side of things, the people who buy the phone or the laptop are the "users" and this is the folks that Apple cares about deeply(And ironical…

What is the difference between an app asking for your cc number and a web page? Do you wish Mozilla was a payment processor and you couldn't pay for netflix without giving Mozilla a cut? What about google?

What if in order to sell you an iphone as a non mac user your browser vendor required Apple to give them 30% of the purchase price? What if they refused to render pages that tried to work around this?

What id your ISP required transactions being conducted via their networks to cut them in on the deal? Hell why not your computers OEM?

Re: Apple Music on Android asks user's card details to avoid Google's 30% cut

#32

Post by vmception »

clomond wrote: post #24
kanobo wrote: post #7

Apple and Google are similar to China and America. Apple has more restrictive policies within a walled garden. Google gives more freedoms but its platform is wild and open. It's easy for Apple to take advantage of Google's ecosystem and open policies, but very difficult for Google to do the same to Apple. It's similar to how US companies don't get a fair shake in China. And in both, the citizens get taken advantage o…

Fascinating analogy. Given the fundamental differences between corporations and governments (and the span of control they have over people’s lives) I do not believe this analogy can be used for any useful inference. It’s almost as if this example with app stores is an incredibly specific, narrow example, and government control in this way is incredibly broad in impact (I.e. life or death, end of the actual world etc)…

> Given the fundamental differences between corporations and governments

I disagree with that line. I feel like people are desperate for there to be a difference based on some 9th grade civics class, or because an animated anthropomorphic piece of paper sang to them about bills in elementary school.

The British East India company had the power to jail and kill, for centuries.

The Head of the Executive Branch is the CEO of government agencies.

Anything is possible.

Re: Apple Music on Android asks user's card details to avoid Google's 30% cut

#33

Post by ffpip »

hacksore wrote: post #28

It’s pretty ironic that apple just removed fortnite for for doing this same thing. Shouldn’t this mean that google pulls Apple Music from the play store now? Edit: seems google is ok with this

Google actually allows this deal. Netflix, Amazon, I think even Tinder do it.

I didn't post to show Apple is breaking rules. I wanted to show they were 'freeloading', the same thing they are accusing Spotify and Epic of . They aren't worried about 'user experience, security and convenience' here.

Google has a problem with games like Fortnite and PUBG, because then they would lose too much. Kids spend millions on Fortnite.

Re: Apple Music on Android asks user's card details to avoid Google's 30% cut

#34

Post by tyre »

copp wrote: post #2

The usual discussion on this topic goes like this: Apple defenders - It is their right to do it, since Android store allows them. Others - Apple is being a hypocrite. While they maintain that app store must be compensated for all the services they do to developers, When given a chance they do not agree with their above statement. I feel w.r.t app stores, Google is User-centric, but Apple is Apple-Centric at the expen…

I would argue the reverse.

I have a HomePod and not an alexa or Google device because Apple has shown it cares about privacy. That's user-centric. Sure, we could be incredibly cynical in saying that "well because you buy it then it is actually Apple-centric", but they clearly care about privacy.

Google to me is entirely Google-centric, which means harvesting as much data about me as possible to sell to advertisers.

I'm fine with Apple's walled garden. It works really, really well. People love iPhones for more than just marketing and status. They're excellent phones. And a not-insignificant piece of that experience is an ecosystem fits together nicely, with central control. Infinite choice isn't better for most people.

Re: Apple Music on Android asks user's card details to avoid Google's 30% cut

#35

Post by michaelmrose »

septillianator wrote: post #20

Apple is obligated to maximize shareholders value. Google is a competitor as well. If apple did anything otherwise, it would cause shareholders losses. Its a publicly traded company. This is capitalism, not Apple.

That a company is obligated to do absolutely anything that will increase revenue is a position often advanced on the internet and never supported.

You cannot have a bonfire and literally burn the companies wealth in your backyard. One may in fact weigh the tangible and non tangible benefits of different courses of actions and make an intelligent decision.

This is covered ably in this article by Cornell

https://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/academics/clarke_business_...

If I may reproduce the most relevant segment.

>Third, corporate directors are not required to maximize shareholder value. As the U.S. Supreme Court recently stated, "modern corporate law does not require for-profit corporations to pursue profit at the expense of everything else, and many do not do so." ( BURWELL v. HOBBY LOBBY STORES, INC. ) In nearly all legal jurisdictions, disinterested and informed directors have the discretion to act in what they believe to be the interest of the business corporate entity, even if this differs from maximizing profits for present shareholders. Usually maximizing shareholder value is not a legal obligation, but the product of the pressure that activist shareholders, stock-based compensation schemes and financial markets impose on corporate directors.

Additional reading is linked for the interested.

Re: Apple Music on Android asks user's card details to avoid Google's 30% cut

#36

Post by foepys »

tyre wrote: post #34
copp wrote: post #2

The usual discussion on this topic goes like this: Apple defenders - It is their right to do it, since Android store allows them. Others - Apple is being a hypocrite. While they maintain that app store must be compensated for all the services they do to developers, When given a chance they do not agree with their above statement. I feel w.r.t app stores, Google is User-centric, but Apple is Apple-Centric at the expen…

I would argue the reverse. I have a HomePod and not an alexa or Google device because Apple has shown it cares about privacy. That's user-centric. Sure, we could be incredibly cynical in saying that "well because you buy it then it is actually Apple-centric", but they clearly care about privacy. Google to me is entirely Google-centric, which means harvesting as much data about me as possible to sell to advertisers. I…

Isn't Apple just like Google and Amazon also using people to listen to some recordings they get via Siri to improve it? If so, that's not really privacy.

Re: Apple Music on Android asks user's card details to avoid Google's 30% cut

#37

Post by mrtksn »

michaelmrose wrote: post #31
mrtksn wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google is User-centric This is correct but the definition of the "user" here is different from the definition of "user" for Apple. In the case of Google, the advertisers and the developers are the "users", and the people who are using the software are the products. On the Apple side of things, the people who buy the phone or the laptop are the "users" and this is the folks that Apple cares about deeply(And ironical…

What is the difference between an app asking for your cc number and a web page? Do you wish Mozilla was a payment processor and you couldn't pay for netflix without giving Mozilla a cut? What about google? What if in order to sell you an iphone as a non mac user your browser vendor required Apple to give them 30% of the purchase price? What if they refused to render pages that tried to work around this? What id your…

Okay, here it is: I want to have single place to manage my payments. As a user, I wouldn't care about the implementation. I wouldn't care about Apple's, Mozilla's or Google's cut. Not good business for you? Tough luck(unless I really want your product, then maybe adjust the price accordingly). What is the difference between App and Website asking for CC? No difference, I hate them both.

As a developer I agree that we shouldn't be forced and restricted to payment methods. My developer opinion is that these payment systems should be considered public utility and should be unified and should work the same for everyone - including Apple. Apple should not be able to have competing products by where they don't pay someone the cut that we pay.

I also think that payments methods shouldn't be able to restrict who we pay. Be it Wikilieaks or whoever we please. That's actually why I am not amused by framing this pity fight over the commission rates as "fight for freedom". It's not fight for freedom, it is cocky businessmen looking to increase their margins.

You know how 99% of the startups fail? Well, maybe they fail because they forget about the user.

Re: Apple Music on Android asks user's card details to avoid Google's 30% cut

#38

Post by Razengan »

copp wrote: post #2

The usual discussion on this topic goes like this: Apple defenders - It is their right to do it, since Android store allows them. Others - Apple is being a hypocrite. While they maintain that app store must be compensated for all the services they do to developers, When given a chance they do not agree with their above statement. I feel w.r.t app stores, Google is User-centric, but Apple is Apple-Centric at the expen…

> but Apple is Apple-Centric at the expense of their customers

Apple has done a lot to curtail scummy developer practices and protect users.

You could go over each of their App Store policies and see how few of them are "at the expense of their customers."

Not the least are their privacy and anti-tracking protections. iOS 14 already caught many apps (including Discord and Instagram) stealing our clipboard data and secretly accessing camera, mic and location.

Claiming Google is "user-centric" and Apple isn't, usually means taking the side of the corporations that are hurt by limited access to user data.

Re: Apple Music on Android asks user's card details to avoid Google's 30% cut

#39

Post by blub »

kanobo wrote: post #7

Apple and Google are similar to China and America. Apple has more restrictive policies within a walled garden. Google gives more freedoms but its platform is wild and open. It's easy for Apple to take advantage of Google's ecosystem and open policies, but very difficult for Google to do the same to Apple. It's similar to how US companies don't get a fair shake in China. And in both, the citizens get taken advantage o…

While one can draw parallels to all sorts of things the question is whether that makes the original situation clearer or offers any insights. In this case it doesn't, it's just a cutesy yet pointless way of expressing something.

Re: Apple Music on Android asks user's card details to avoid Google's 30% cut

#40

Post by baddox »

vmception wrote: post #32
clomond wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fascinating analogy. Given the fundamental differences between corporations and governments (and the span of control they have over people’s lives) I do not believe this analogy can be used for any useful inference. It’s almost as if this example with app stores is an incredibly specific, narrow example, and government control in this way is incredibly broad in impact (I.e. life or death, end of the actual world etc)…

> Given the fundamental differences between corporations and governments I disagree with that line. I feel like people are desperate for there to be a difference based on some 9th grade civics class, or because an animated anthropomorphic piece of paper sang to them about bills in elementary school. The British East India company had the power to jail and kill, for centuries. The Head of the Executive Branch is the C…

The British East India company was a government actor. It’s silly to consider them otherwise simply because it was technically a “joint-stock company.” It was part of the government. Wikipedia even notes:

> Originally chartered as the "Governor and Company of Merchants of London Trading into the East-Indies"

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