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Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

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Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#621

Post by sfjailbird »

mapgrep wrote: post #198

You could argue about Apple's rights, or citizens' free speech rights, or consumer rights, under existing law. It would be an interesting discussion because I think it's a lot more complicated an issue that most people appreciate. But really why not talk about how we think things should work on platforms like iOS? What should the law be? What protects essential human rights, encourages creativity, and allows business…

> You could argue about Apple's rights [...] But really why not talk about how we think things should work on platforms like iOS?

Because this is a time and place to call out Apple and Google, the colluding monopolists, for their de facto, if not (yet) proven de jure, criminal behavior, which costs developers, like us, enormous amounts of money.

A call to arms is what we need. It's not a difficult philosophical question. (1) Cut the ridiculous 30% fee, (2) allow other payment processors, (3) allow alternative app installation processes.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#622

Post by camhart »

wheelie_boy wrote: post #285
mapgrep wrote: post #198

You could argue about Apple's rights, or citizens' free speech rights, or consumer rights, under existing law. It would be an interesting discussion because I think it's a lot more complicated an issue that most people appreciate. But really why not talk about how we think things should work on platforms like iOS? What should the law be? What protects essential human rights, encourages creativity, and allows business…

A big part of the value of iPhones and iPads is that you don't have to worry about installing an app that screws up your system and requires a wipe & reinstall. You don't have to worry about viruses. You don't have to worry about spending a lot of time being a system administrator, and just use it. You don't even have to worry about many types of malware, because the system protects you from poorly-behaved applicatio…

How did you come to the conclusion that wiping and reinstalling is a regular part of android users lives? Or that it requires you be a system admin to use it? Or that you have to worry about many types of malware?

I'm an android user, and I think you have the wrong impression of what android is actually like. Have you ever used one as your primary device for a non-insignificant amount of time?

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#623

Post by dj_mc_merlin »

throwaway6000 wrote: post #549
throwaway140820 wrote: post #543

Apologies for the extreme swearing that ensues. Wow, I would have hoped for better support from the HN community. Instead there are apologists after apologists. So what if Epic is big. Really, seriously shouldn't we have had alternative app stores available form the official ones. Why is this even a point of debate? All the time we hear stories of people one of our own getting fucked by these app stores and their lor…

1. Apple establishes rules that EVERY app publisher follows for YEARS. 2. Fortnite doesn't follow rule. 3. Apple kicks Fortnite out of the App store. What were they expecting?

1. Pharaoh says everybody who speaks against the royal family has their tongue cut out.

2. Seth says there should be less taxes as the pharaoh is too rich.

3. He gets his tongue cut out. What did he expect?

Unfair rules should not always be followed.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#624

Post by Silhouette »

spanhandler wrote: post #601
throwaway140820 wrote: post #543

Apologies for the extreme swearing that ensues. Wow, I would have hoped for better support from the HN community. Instead there are apologists after apologists. So what if Epic is big. Really, seriously shouldn't we have had alternative app stores available form the official ones. Why is this even a point of debate? All the time we hear stories of people one of our own getting fucked by these app stores and their lor…

> Fuck your security and fuck your walled gardens. Sigh. I guess we're going to remove a product category (the relatively safe, very consistent, managed platform you can use when you just want to use a computer and not also manage a computer ) and call that consumer choice, then? I'd prefer instead that more companies make something similarly-nice and compete with Apple. I have lots and lots of options I can use if I…

I guess we're going to remove a product category (the relatively safe, very consistent, managed platform you can use when you just want to use a computer and not also manage a computer) and call that consumer choice, then?

Isn't the point here that Apple could still provide good security features in iOS and still provide their app store with whatever security or other vetting measures they consider appropriate and allow users to install software from other sources if they so wish?

Users who want Apple's version of safety and security can stick with the default configuration on their devices and install apps only from Apple's store, just like today. However, both they and Apple would pay a price if the Apple app store was then too restrictive in its policies and/or tried to charge excessively: developers who weren't prepared to provide their apps on those terms could sell them through other stores.

Then for those apps, Apple wouldn't get their cut, while users who insisted on sticking with only Apple's store wouldn't have the same range of apps available to them. However, no other users or developers would have their hands tied by Apple's policies. I fail to see how this would restrict consumer choice more than the status quo.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#625

Post by sjy »

cblconfederate wrote: post #396
mapgrep wrote: post #198

You could argue about Apple's rights, or citizens' free speech rights, or consumer rights, under existing law. It would be an interesting discussion because I think it's a lot more complicated an issue that most people appreciate. But really why not talk about how we think things should work on platforms like iOS? What should the law be? What protects essential human rights, encourages creativity, and allows business…

Apple could try any amount of tech to lock their devices, but it shouldn't be illegal to break those locks.

Nobody benefits from the pointless arms race that this policy generates.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#626

Post by tommilukkarinen »

throwaway140820 wrote: post #543

Apologies for the extreme swearing that ensues. Wow, I would have hoped for better support from the HN community. Instead there are apologists after apologists. So what if Epic is big. Really, seriously shouldn't we have had alternative app stores available form the official ones. Why is this even a point of debate? All the time we hear stories of people one of our own getting fucked by these app stores and their lor…

I was asked today, something with the lines: "Why don't you organize and fight? Why don't you build an open ecosystem, which you will use to replace stores."

I was thinking after that a) we could make a store (that's the simple part) b) when enough of us were behind we could pressure for it to be accepted

Because even if Epic wins and we can have some improvements, it wont fix the issues

I would donate and work for the cause, what about the rest of you? How to get started, Apache Foundation?

EDIT: I have to add, I would not work for this 'because it is the right thing to do', but to ensure that I can do business in the future without fear of A+G

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#627

Post by DabbyDabberson »

staunch wrote: post #587
jacobsenscott wrote: post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I truly believe apple pays people to comb through HN and down vote any comment critical of apple. The simple fact is that apple has done more than any other company in the history of computing to quash the freedom to control your own computing devices. It is impossible to fight apple in the way we fought microsoft years ago - by building out a good opensource ecosystem. The entire reason for the app store is to stop…

HN's great flaw is that it has been allowed to be overrun by huge numbers of people from large organizations. There are tens of thousands of people from FAANG/YC acting as self-interested agents of their organizations without any kind of disclosure or counter-measures. These are, in effect, massive voting rings and propaganda efforts which are supposedly not allowed on HN. It's obvious how this results in the total d…

how do you keep FANG employees from commenting?

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#628

Post by darthrupert »

throwaway6000 wrote: post #572
wmichelin wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm right with you. This is much worse than what Microsoft got in trouble for many years ago. They know what they're doing in wrong and I sure hope Epic gets their day in court. It's predatory and anti-consumer. Apple can eat shit.

Fortnite for Android just got axed from the Google Play Store too https://techcrunch.com/2020/08/13/fortnite-android-google-ki... Oops! Apple Bad, Google Good? ;)

Apple sort of ok, Google worse, Epic worst. You guys should don't seem to understand what kind of companies these three are.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#629

Post by mvn9 »

throwaway140820 wrote: post #543

Apologies for the extreme swearing that ensues. Wow, I would have hoped for better support from the HN community. Instead there are apologists after apologists. So what if Epic is big. Really, seriously shouldn't we have had alternative app stores available form the official ones. Why is this even a point of debate? All the time we hear stories of people one of our own getting fucked by these app stores and their lor…

No, we shouldn't have had an alternative app store on iphones. Apple doesn't have a monopoly. Nobody is forcing anybody to buy an iphone to get online and make calls.

If you start a company, and you have 50% market share [1], do you want to be treated like a monopoly?

In a free market, Apple should be allowed to operate however they see fit, as long as they don't have a monopoly. Of course it is annoying that they can demand that much, but that's how open markets work.

All those developers who want better conditions on an app store, nobody is preventing them from joining their forces and creating a better operating system that promotes their own store with more favourable conditions.

Android is a sitting duck. Take objective c, the bsd kernel and the openstep libraries and link them up to your own mobile operating system. As long as Oracle doesn't win against Google, it can even have the same api as ios and thus all the existing apps from the apple app store. At first, offer it as a ROM for android devices, then start making your own. Apple's devices are expensive. Customers will love to buy cheaper alternatives.

Judging by the upvotes of this story alone, there should be 1000 developers wanting to have their own app store. If half of them invest some time of their life to create a new objective c operating system, they should have something operational in a year or two. Most likely much faster than the legal proceedings that could create a second app store on ios, with the nice benefit of being in control of the process.

[1] Research into Android vs iOS market share in the US shows that the market leader remains Google Android, with a 51.1% market share in June 2019. https://leftronic.com/android-vs-ios-market-share/

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#630

Post by submeta »

staunch wrote: post #587
jacobsenscott wrote: post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I truly believe apple pays people to comb through HN and down vote any comment critical of apple. The simple fact is that apple has done more than any other company in the history of computing to quash the freedom to control your own computing devices. It is impossible to fight apple in the way we fought microsoft years ago - by building out a good opensource ecosystem. The entire reason for the app store is to stop…

HN's great flaw is that it has been allowed to be overrun by huge numbers of people from large organizations. There are tens of thousands of people from FAANG/YC acting as self-interested agents of their organizations without any kind of disclosure or counter-measures. These are, in effect, massive voting rings and propaganda efforts which are supposedly not allowed on HN. It's obvious how this results in the total d…

How would you determine these actors? Any ideas?
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