Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#461

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 12:03 AM UTC

ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #446

smnrchrds wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple and Google are both charging 30% fees and together, they own almost the entire smartphone market. It is harming consumers due to the higher costs this 30% is imposing on transactions. Whether it is illegal or not is up to the court to decide. But as a customer, I would like to complain about this and state my dissatisfaction. Perhaps if enough people do it, they will change their behaviour. Also as a voter, I w…

Why? They provide a great service to consumers - a store to get applications easily. They provide a great service to devs - a store to get consumers to see and buy their products. Why is 30% unfair? A company charging a certain percentage for something is neither unfair or anti-competitive. You need to develop your argument further.

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Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#462

Post by donor20 » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 12:10 AM UTC

pythonaut_16 wrote: post #322

heavyset_go wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the FTC itself[1]: > Courts do not require a literal monopoly before applying rules for single firm conduct; that term is used as shorthand for a firm with significant and durable market power — that is, the long term ability to raise price or exclude competitors. That is how that term is used here: a "monopolist" is a firm with significant and durable market power. Courts look at the firm's market share, but ty…

Geographic area is an interesting term here. If you take "iPhone owners" as a geographic area, then Apple has a 100% monopoly on that market. Geographic area == captive audience, and since iPhone users are a captive audience of the app store. I think there's a reasonable argument that users buy iPhones with the expectation of a market in the app store (I can get or buy apps from any company that cares to develop one)…

I suppose the next case will be against Walmart for not allowing me to setup my own kiosk with my own payment processor in their store if you define markets in this way. They have a monopoly in their stores on sales of items.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#463

Post by donor20 » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 12:11 AM UTC

itsovermyhead wrote: post #220

ecf wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not a monopoly though. No one is being forced into using an iOS device. A monopoly would be if Apple was literally the only smartphone manufacturer in the entire world.

I'll defer to Epic's official court filings to make the argument for a monopoly for me. I'm not an expert on such topics, and it would be out of turn for me to speak more on it. "Apple monopolizes the iOS App Distribution Market". https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/apple-complaint-734589783.pdf

And walmart monopolizes the walmart store distribution market.

Is this seriously the argument?

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#464

Post by ashtonkem » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 12:15 AM UTC

mhh__ wrote: post #176

ashtonkem wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I don't like it" and "It's illegal" are not the same thing.

Illegal does not imply monopoly, either.

22% market share isn’t a monopoly.

If you’re accusing Apple of breaking other laws, please specify which.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#465

Post by jhatemyjob » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 12:16 AM UTC

damnyou wrote: post #327

jhatemyjob wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay sovereign citizen. Have fun living in your fantasy world

Far from it, I'm thinking more in terms of Liz Warren's Accountable Capitalism Act: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accountable_Capitalism_Act

Ah okay this at least makes some sense.

I don't know how effective something like this would be, wouldn't this just incentivize hiring people that fit your political agenda?

For instance let's say you hire a bunch of Chinese/Indian immigrants on H-1B visas, they'll just vote in people that benefit China/India

Also the 1997-2011 era Apple probably wouldn't have worked under a law like this

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#466

Post by donor20 » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 12:19 AM UTC

newbie578 wrote: post #414

mmcconnell1618 wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iPhone has just under 50% in the United States. The 22% share is globally. So in a US court, their would be an argument for monopoly (or duopoly). https://www.statista.com/statistics/266572/market-share-held... .

It's crazy how he won't respond to you know, since people purposely keep saying that Apple is not a monopoly, and when someone shares a stat where Apple has around 50% marketshare, then they just disappear in the ground.

I don't have time to respond to every comment. The court case argues that apple monopolizes the iOS App Distribution market. So they claim a real monopoly.

Similarly, I'm sure Walmart monopolizes the Walmart distribution market.

As that law has been interpreted, it is not illegal for a company to have a monopoly, to charge "high prices," or to try to achieve a monopoly position by what might be viewed by some as particularly aggressive methods. The law is violated only if the company tries to maintain or acquire a monopoly through unreasonable methods.

They STARTED the app store with these terms, that is literally the OPPOSITE of achieving a monopoly with predatory or below market pricing. They did such a good job that despite the high price most developers make LOTS of money on the app store, and users value many of the elements as well.

Anyways, will be an interesting case, but it's not "crazy" that someone doesn't have time to respond to every point on HN - seriously HN has gone full outrage / offense these days with no ability to just discuss merits, consider other viewpoints.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#467

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 12:20 AM UTC

xmprt wrote: post #144

donor20 wrote: post #25

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Good lord - on HN the monopoly comments are so crazy sometimes. What is the monopoly issue Apple has? Use android if you don't like Apple's product line. Apple is at 22% share.

If you read into anti-trust laws for more than 10 seconds, you'll realize that it covers much more than just monopolies.

[deleted]

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#468

Post by robgibbons » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 12:29 AM UTC

crazypython wrote: post #264

slongfield wrote: post #83

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If a developer doesn't like Unreal's terms, there are other game engines. If a developer doesn't like Apple's terms, there are no viable alternatives for iOS distribution.

Most people don't have more than one phone. Phones are used for more than gaming. If a developer doesn't like Apple's terms, they can't distribute on iOS, except through a web app. Perhaps PWA+WebGPU will solve this.

Except you're still locked into Apple's webview, thanks to their policy of disallowing other rendering engines. PWAs on iOS will only ever work as well as Apple allows them to.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#469

Post by itsovermyhead » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 12:38 AM UTC

donor20 wrote: post #463

itsovermyhead wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll defer to Epic's official court filings to make the argument for a monopoly for me. I'm not an expert on such topics, and it would be out of turn for me to speak more on it. "Apple monopolizes the iOS App Distribution Market". https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/apple-complaint-734589783.pdf

And walmart monopolizes the walmart store distribution market. Is this seriously the argument?

That's a pretty poor strawman.

There are multiple stores that you can try and get your product on. If Walmart doesn't work, then you could try Target, or Aldi, or Amazon.

You have literally one option to go with on iOS. You can't even "drive to a new store", as switching to Android costs hundreds of dollars, and not everyone is in a financial situation to purchase a new phone on a whim.

I won't argue about the specifics of this, Epic paid lawyers millions of dollars to draft a court document about the monopolization of the iOS app distribution store. I'd urge you to read the document first before drawing pretty poor parallels.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#470

Post by boogies » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 12:40 AM UTC

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #377

jeffrallen wrote: post #355

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You might enjoy a trip to Aru, in eastern DR Congo. The gas pumps were run off of a gas generator!

You only have to travel to third world countries like USA.

I don’t have downvote yet and you’re tempting me to flag you. The US is a vast and diverse country with plenty of areas that aren’t homogeneously Liechtenstein rich but it’s far from any widely-established definition of a third world country.