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Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

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Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#371

Post by ffggvv »

nouveaux wrote: post #353
ffggvv wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you’re comparing hardware to software which i don’t think is fair. apple creates the marketplace, the OS, and the hardware. it’s a much more complex issue which is more analogous to if windows required all users to use internet explorer, which we know is monopolistic. there’s also much more friction switching software like stripe than hardware like your iphone

I'm not sure why it's not the same. Apple could just sell the hardware. Here Apple is selling the hardware and providing a marketplace for apps. There is virtually no difference between the App Store and using the browser to buy things from Amazon. The argument is that Apple should provide the ability to sell things on the App Store with out a cut. Amazon by the same argument should be forced to do the same. You can…

my argument is consumers should be free to get apps from other sources than the app store. just like people can shop at ebay or amazon.

with apple, their hardware locks you into one choice for apps. i think we should be able to download any app directly from websites that make them

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#372

Post by 43920 »

wheelie_boy wrote: post #285
mapgrep wrote: post #198

You could argue about Apple's rights, or citizens' free speech rights, or consumer rights, under existing law. It would be an interesting discussion because I think it's a lot more complicated an issue that most people appreciate. But really why not talk about how we think things should work on platforms like iOS? What should the law be? What protects essential human rights, encourages creativity, and allows business…

A big part of the value of iPhones and iPads is that you don't have to worry about installing an app that screws up your system and requires a wipe & reinstall. You don't have to worry about viruses. You don't have to worry about spending a lot of time being a system administrator, and just use it. You don't even have to worry about many types of malware, because the system protects you from poorly-behaved applicatio…

I would argue that the technical limitations of iOS are what accomplishes this, rather than app review. For a malicious actor, sneaking prohibited behavior past app review is incredibly easy - look at what Fortnite just did! The reason that apps on iOS can't damage your device is that apps are sandboxed, and that the OS requires user permission to access data and places limits on how many resources an app can use. There's no reason that the same sandboxing system couldn't be applied to apps from outside the store.

(VPNs and provisioning profiles are sort of an exception to this, because they can escape the sandbox, but a) the number of scary warnings presented by the system should be enough to limit their impact, and b) they will also continue to exist separately from the app store issue).

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#373

Post by tln »

nouveaux wrote: post #325

For those who are arguing that Apple should allow third party developers to have their own marketplace without Apple taking a cut, should: - Ebay allow for a third party marketplace to exist without them getting a cut? -PayPal, chase, stripe allow third party developers to offer up their own payment services without the respective companies take a cut? Also by the same token, Amazon is a monopoly by taking a percenta…

Just looking at the Ebay comparison.., it's not apples to apples (sorry).

A third party marketplace would be Etsy. Ebay can't stop you from going to Etsy.

Epic isn't trying to set up an app store on iOS (as they tried for Android!). They are trying to avoid using the platform payment system.

Ebay DOES have restrictions on payments![0] But you DO NOT have to use PayPal:

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/payment-policies/accepted...

And, Ebay doesn't charge exorbitant fees! 10% vs 30%.

I don't get how chase and stripe relate to this situation.

My view is that Apple deserves a cut, maybe even 30%, by giving you users and transactions of App purchases. Sure, even IAP, since its lower friction. But not allowing you to handle your own IAP IF YOU WANT or your own subscriptions or offer a different price based on payment method or link to where you CAN sign up or even mention WHY or that Apple is taking a huge cut is... basically extortion.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#374

Post by biryani_chicken »

013a wrote: post #289
martin8412 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This will cost Epic more money than it will Apple. Either company can end up dragging the legal battle on for years. In the meantime Epic's game won't be available on Apple platforms. By the time that battle is over, the game is probably not popular anymore.

Fortnite grosses hundreds of millions of dollars on the App Store [1]; every dollar spent is a cut Apple counts toward its $10B+ annual gaming revenue numbers [2]. It is not an understatement to say that Fortnite, as a single application, is responsible for single-digit percentages of Apple's gaming revenue (which, while small as a whole, is a TON of money). This move hurt Apple, full stop. It will likely cost them s…

Google has also removed Fornite from it's own store[0] so it's guilty of the same screwy policies as Apple.

[0]https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21368079/fortnite-epic-an...

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#375

Post by dannyw »

Terretta wrote: post #356

> “Apple, Google, and Android manufacturers make vast, vast profits from the sale of their devices and do not in any way justify the 30 percent cut.” > Epic launched a game store on PC in which it takes only 12 percent of revenue as a way to try to encourage a similar change in competitor Valve’s Steam marketplace. "Do not in any way"? Well, in at least 12% of a way, right, Epic? And Apple, after acquiring you a new…

The 15% only applies to subscriptions after 1 year and would never apply to something like the sale of V-bucks which is transactional.

For subscriptions, everyone knows the majority of revenue happen in the first year due to churn.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#376

Post by throwaway927282 »

nouveaux wrote: post #357
throwaway927282 wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

eBay and PayPal both have third party alternatives: simply going to a different website/app. On iOS your only option is paying Apple $100/yr to do something similar. A similar thing would be Google Chrome blocking access to PayPal servers because they didn’t get a 10% cut of all transactions.

The browser is the same exact thing. Apple does not prevent you from using the same banking, shopping, email services through the web.

Fantastic! How do I play Fortnite and purchase V-bucks on the web?

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#377

Post by cjaybo »

dgrin91 wrote: post #368
js2 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the parody, but it's not really equivalent. The original Apple parody was to convince consumers to switch from one platform (PC) to a different platform (Mac). Now, maybe you believe Apple, in the form of iOS, has become Big Brother. Fine, in that case, Epic should provide its own gaming platform. But Epic isn't trying to destroy Big Brother here. It still wants to run on Big Brother's platform. It just doesn'…

Epic stated that they want to create their own separate app store outside of apple, but are unable to because apple does not allow sideloading. So no, Epic doesn't want to run on Big Brother's platform.

iOS is the platform in the parent's analogy, not the app store.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#378

Post by wheelie_boy »

43920 wrote: post #372
wheelie_boy wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big part of the value of iPhones and iPads is that you don't have to worry about installing an app that screws up your system and requires a wipe & reinstall. You don't have to worry about viruses. You don't have to worry about spending a lot of time being a system administrator, and just use it. You don't even have to worry about many types of malware, because the system protects you from poorly-behaved applicatio…

I would argue that the technical limitations of iOS are what accomplishes this, rather than app review. For a malicious actor, sneaking prohibited behavior past app review is incredibly easy - look at what Fortnite just did! The reason that apps on iOS can't damage your device is that apps are sandboxed, and that the OS requires user permission to access data and places limits on how many resources an app can use. Th…

Sandboxing is important, but is only one part of the protections.

There's also:

- App store guidelines on what is and is not permissible in different cases

- Restrictions against using private APIs

- Restrictions against jailbreaking the device

There are a variety of VPN apps available on iOS. Why was Onavo blocked? Because it violated the guidelines on the use of the information, which is the kind of thing that it difficult to automate.

Restrictions against using private APIs are semi-automated, and would be difficult to completely automate.

The fact that you can't get an iOS app that jailbreaks the device in order to do whatever it wants is in part due to human review - if one existed in the store, it would get pulled, and the developer cert would get revoked. Jailbreaks exist, and human review in the app store is one way they are mitigated.

I for one remember the bad old days when playing a CD could (and did!) install a rootkit.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#379

Post by simonh »

inopinatus wrote: post #363
simonh wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft already does exactly this on console. When will we see the Google Stadia game streaming app on the XBOX? Does Microsoft really not take a cut of VBucks bought on the Microsoft store? This is just three big corporations fighting over their respective slices of the pie, if you think any of this is being said or done for your benefit I’m sure Epic has a plentiful supply of really tasty Koolaid for you. But no…

No, it isn’t the same. Far from it. Microsoft and Sony don’t prohibit linking to external signup & account management, which is why I can resubscribe my FFXIV account from a console. Apple’s rules prevent vendors from linking to external service account setup/management. You cannot even mention the existence thereof, let alone link to it or advertise the options provided therein. Consumers are explicitly kept in the…

XBOX might let you do some things Apple won’t, but you can’t buy a productivity app for your XBOX. They’re just different restrictions and rules for different devices, the whole point of competition is to be able to do things differently.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#380

Post by pb7 »

cromwellian wrote: post #365
pb7 wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.playstation.com/en-us/explore/ps4-pro/ "Pro" means absolutely nothing. It is a marketing label. Also the price means nothing. What's $1,000 (iPad Pro) to you is $500 (PS4 Pro) to me.

So Apple isn't pitching the iPad Pro as a laptop replacement, and is instead pitching it as a games console? Funny, I seem to member the announcements, and Apple showing iPhone Pro's shooting movies, doing professional photography, video editing, etc. This this a game console? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7krzWNOXrFY Gimme a break. Rent-seeking behavior dressed up in a security credit.

What do games consoles have to do with this? I'm showing you a similar walled garden app ecosystem (PlayStation) with a "Pro" label since you went down that path. iPad doesn't have to be a games console to be subject to the same rules.
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