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India Graduates Millions, But Too Few Are Fit to Hire

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Re: India Graduates Millions, But Too Few Are Fit to Hire

#141
Here is what is wrong after having been taught in a decent engineering college in India.

1) One studies hard trying to get into a decent engineering college. If they are even wee bit good, they get into a decent college.

Sidenote: For anyone who says they did not get into a good college and are doing great in life now (at least intellectually), here is what happened.

You were not so great or smart when you gave that exam. You got to learn through self learning, fear of not being able to do great stuff in life and a lot of experience or got away to US in a decent college because your family could afford it.

2)Once they get into the college, the freedom, the fun, the energy, the beer, the drugs often bring the worse out of them. If none of the above they probably trade lectures for Counter Strike sessions (I mean 6-7 hours of continuous sessions everyday) or Poker or some new shit.

The sad part is these people are still doing the right thing since the guy taking the class most probably knows nothing about the subject too and if they do are either bad teachers or too obnoxious to be able to impart knowledge to a mind that is vulnerable to wandering off to butterflies or scribbles at the back of notebook or tweeting (the hot new stuff).

3) So even if you were the CS guy in school, the agony of being taught by people who were not the best people for the job leaves one disappointed. Something as cool as programming no longer is exciting because you have to do exactly what is expected of you. [Anecdotal evidence: I actually was never much of a programmer. I kept passing every exam by just writing logic and pseudocodes. I did write a simple factorial using something other than recursion and the lab in charge got the better out of me. Then on I left bothering myself, so by the time we were being taught data structures, I had lost my ground.]

The people who are the toppers in a class are those who attend every lecture (does not matter what they get out of it) and show utter respect for the profs. 100% attendance and you are bound to get a decent score in the end sems. That is when studying loses its charm.

4) At the end of college getting a good job means getting into a consultancy. Many smarter companies just do not allow Non CS people to sit for programming jobs even when they prove to be great. [ Anecdotal Evidence: A friend of a friend from a non CS degree got into Facebook US, before being not allowed to sit by Google India and MS India]

So call it lack of opportunities, self belief, hard work of students, peer pressure, you end up being just a graduate. Not an engineer in any sense of word.

Re: India Graduates Millions, But Too Few Are Fit to Hire

#142
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you pay for what you get Yes, when you outsourced to India, you probably did so on the basis of getting cheap labour, so it seems utterly unsurprising that you were disappointed with the results. There are a lot of competent outsourcing firms in India - you probably don't use them because they are expensive.

First, I was working as a consultant to work with organizations who off-shored there sys admin work. As a consultant I found myself having to document something step by step to the India counterparts. Why on earth does this make any sense to hire such people when I could simply do it myself? I've looked at the costs and they could hire one good on-site consultant for the price of 3 bad Indian ones. This is the age ol…

Well, I think we're looking at it from different angles.

You see good outsourcing companies as those that have technically competent engineers. That's not how I see it.

I think part of the reason big companies are still outsourcing to India is not because of the low cost of technical competence, but rather, the low cost of process management in developing IT-related software.

For example, when you outsource a module to be built by the offshore team, you may end up with code which is not world-class quality in terms of maintainability or performance, but you will end up with something that matches the requirements you gave. And if something seems out of place, they will be able to trace it from the bullet point in the requirements.doc file down to the module stored in VSS (yes, sadly, probably VSS, not subversion or git), to the unit test cases that cover it in unit-tests.xls.

This is because all the companies that are outsourcing their IT are not doing it in the hopes of getting good code, or because they're not technically competent enough to write the required code (most outsourced code is of the CRUD variety as people have mentioned here) they are doing it because its cheaper than having a whole team to track requirements, and make sure they map to UI elements in the right places and that the code is documented in a way that someone down the line won't be able to complain about it not being understandable, and that the unit tests are in place and all of them are checked-off.

I guess if you're outsourcing work that requires technical competence, maybe you're right about other countries working out better (I have my doubts but don't have any reason to disbelieve you) but I think a majority of the outsourcing success stories (involving India) work because their outsourcing needs have less to do with the actual code quality and more to do with the process involved in writing boring enterprise CRUD apps.

Re: India Graduates Millions, But Too Few Are Fit to Hire

#143
post #90
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the detailed comment. I just want to know how did you got the loan? The question is open for anyone too. I'm a third-world citizen looking to study in the USA and while can make my living, I don't think I can pay the expensive tuition fees.

Why not go to continental Europe instead? Universities are mostly either very affordable or, in some cases, free.

If the quality matches, that's a great deal. I life in North Africa. But do you have any idea (which university, how to apply, requirements...)

Re: India Graduates Millions, But Too Few Are Fit to Hire

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The situation sucks, but only economic growth will solve the problem. The fundamental problem is scarcity - not enough wealth to go around. A revolution against economic reality will not create wealth. (Granted, a revolution against corrupt government workers demanding bribes might. If that's the revolution you want to start, I'll lend my pitchfork.)

"The fundamental problem is scarcity" Is it? I think distribution is more the issue. We shouldn't underestimate the paralyzing impact pervasive bureaucracy and corruption can have on an economy.

No matter how you distribute $3k per person per year (PPP adjusted), it's not very much.

I don't think I underestimated the impact of bureaucracy and corruption - if you notice, I sort of advocated lynching corrupt government officials.

Re: India Graduates Millions, But Too Few Are Fit to Hire

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can relate to you but I did take up CompSci in 11th and 12th grades and was pushed by my parents to stick to what I wanted (lucky). They had probably noticed that I was spending too much time on the computer trying to create something or just tinker with it. Joined Info Science engg later. But I've been disappointed since. I had to scrape through chem, physics and civil subjects (compulsory common subjects at my un…

If social status == money, why is starting a company so frowned-upon by Indian parents? Is it risk aversion on the part of brides' families? Is it considered better to marry your daughter off to, say, an IBMer where both the upsides and downsides are bounded than it is for your daughter to marry someone who is a risk taker? BTW, I'm a white American guy who is simply trying to understand.

In the US, the result of failure is bankruptcy and burning through your savings, followed by an upper middle class career track. Worst case, you are earning the pay of a 35 year old when you are 40 and your 401k is smaller.

In India, the downside is unbounded. Peru looks wealthy by comparison. 46% of the urban population doesn't have access to improved sanitation. I know a doctor in India who can't afford a water supply with one nine of uptime.

Under the same circumstances, I'm sure you'd also discourage your daughter from marrying an entrepreneur.

Granted, you probably wouldn't be locking her away from the outside world, discouraging her from getting educated (makes her less marriageworthy and harder to control), or selecting her husband for her. But that's a separate issue.

Re: India Graduates Millions, But Too Few Are Fit to Hire

#146
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, I was working as a consultant to work with organizations who off-shored there sys admin work. As a consultant I found myself having to document something step by step to the India counterparts. Why on earth does this make any sense to hire such people when I could simply do it myself? I've looked at the costs and they could hire one good on-site consultant for the price of 3 bad Indian ones. This is the age ol…

Well, I think we're looking at it from different angles. You see good outsourcing companies as those that have technically competent engineers. That's not how I see it. I think part of the reason big companies are still outsourcing to India is not because of the low cost of technical competence, but rather, the low cost of process management in developing IT-related software. For example, when you outsource a module…

Absolutely agreed -> low cost of process management in developing IT-related software.

The issue I have with this is that success (if you could call it that?) in enterprise IT is driven by both competence in both process management and engineering talent. The paradigm (and the fallacy) of today's IT is that the enterprise sees IT as largely commoditized. What would happen if, for example, a CRUD application was built by developers who understood the benefits of UI/usability and this increase performance/productivity of a salesforce? Naturally I'm inclined to think the 'Enterprise' would simply write off IT's existence ("let's cut costs and send it to India!") and praise the salesforce ("another great quarter of double digit growth")

I think it's wishful thinking, but whatever happened to using to technology to solving strategic problems?

Re: India Graduates Millions, But Too Few Are Fit to Hire

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can relate to you but I did take up CompSci in 11th and 12th grades and was pushed by my parents to stick to what I wanted (lucky). They had probably noticed that I was spending too much time on the computer trying to create something or just tinker with it. Joined Info Science engg later. But I've been disappointed since. I had to scrape through chem, physics and civil subjects (compulsory common subjects at my un…

If social status == money, why is starting a company so frowned-upon by Indian parents? Is it risk aversion on the part of brides' families? Is it considered better to marry your daughter off to, say, an IBMer where both the upsides and downsides are bounded than it is for your daughter to marry someone who is a risk taker? BTW, I'm a white American guy who is simply trying to understand.

India has no welfare structure, zilch, zero, nada. More than half of population has no sanitation, lot of children are seriously suffering from malnutrition; and good schools are available to few.

If you are an entrepreneur in India, most probably you were lucky enough to be born in 20% of 'richer' family of India, and more often than not, a failure might put you back with the rest 80%. That is too much to bet, especially in a place where start-up in Silicon valley sense is quite difficult to setup.

Re: India Graduates Millions, But Too Few Are Fit to Hire

#148

Indian who finished Engg in CS (from a less known university) here, I can pretty much attest to the story. Some facts that I want to state are below. #1. Reason: Most of the folks joining (CS in) Engineering do so due to parental/societal pressure. Engineering degree from an established college is a sure shot way to that cozy job in BigCo Inc. through campus placements, once they clear those stupid interviews (usual…

-- #1. Reason: Most of the folks joining (CS in) Engineering do so due to parental/societal pressure. --

I've seen a number of people who enter CS here in the states do so for this same reason. They get weeded out in interviews quickly because they have no desire to better themselves, no curiosity about the topic, and really give the impression they would rather be elsewhere.

On the educational side, even with 2nd tier schooling, if you want to learn, are curious, and want to put the time in, you can make yourself shine above peers around you.

Re: India Graduates Millions, But Too Few Are Fit to Hire

#149
People are educated in India. That doesn;t mean they have to speak English or be able to read English books. English is not the native language for many school and college going people and their education have been through vernacular medium schools. Its how sharp they are that matters. Teach them English properly and they will be able to grasp that too! This articles tries to judge students based on "So few of the high school and college graduates who come through the door can communicate effectively in English, and so many lack a grasp of educational basics such as reading comprehension, that the company can hire just three out of every 100 applicants." which is ridiculous!!
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