Young children would rather explore than get rewards • Hacker News Board

Re: Young children would rather explore than get rewards

#201

Post by ggggtez » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 5:51 PM UTC

cyberlurker wrote: post #199

fxtentacle wrote: post #32

While the study classifies it as exploration and claims an intrinsic reward that will die out later in life, I would describe the behavior as novelty-seeking. I'd wager that for adults, a game on a screen is just not new enough. But if you'd give adult males a choice of which female to undress, I'm pretty sure they would value "exploration" very highly again. In a similar vain, when smartphones were new, the adult po…

Let me just be the one to say your choice of topic for exploration is incredibly cringeworthy in 2020. Also inaccurate for some parts of the adult male population. Use a better example next time.

I think the bigger problem is that the experiment wouldn't be well formed (the "value" of each image would vary between study participants).

I don't think we should throw out wholesale that sexuality is a big driver of human behavior though, even if the example isn't inclusive. Changing "woman" to "person" addresses part of your concern, but still doesn't actually fix the experiment as proposed. The bigger problem is the experiment wouldn't work, rather than that it was cringeworthy. Which, sure. If it was cringeworthy, but worked, I guess it could have some excusability in terms of science. As is, you're right. It's juvenile.

Re: Young children would rather explore than get rewards

#202

Post by watwut » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 6:11 PM UTC

kcolford wrote: post #200

cyberlurker wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me just be the one to say your choice of topic for exploration is incredibly cringeworthy in 2020. Also inaccurate for some parts of the adult male population. Use a better example next time.

Maybe you find it cringeworthy, but I find it on topic and very relatable. The role of a speaker is to make their material easy to digest for their audience. For this audience in particular, I would argue that this example is statistically likely to resonate with most of them. So your parent commenter is strongly incentivized to use this example and conduct themselves this way, so of course they did so. I don't think…

I think that point was that relevant portion of adult male population spends a lot of time play games on screen, not finding it boring at all. They do find it more then they do porn. In 2020, claiming that "a game on a screen is just not new enough" for adults is highly inaccurate.

Re: Young children would rather explore than get rewards

#203

Post by zackmorris » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 6:13 PM UTC

Well ya. I've found at middle age that I'm most interested in connection and transcendence, finding meaning and such. When one realizes that material things truly are valueless compared to things like consciousness, friendship, love, dignity, etc etc etc, then everything else falls away. I often find myself realizing that I am looking at the world with the same childlike wonder I had when I was 5. To me, this search for meaning was what the 1960s was all about, as well as every other cultural renaissance and era of spiritual awakening.

Which makes the conceptual basis of things like economics suspect. The idea that humans are motivated by monetary rewards and material things turned out to be false. So did concepts like scarcity, reciprocity, commoditization, and so on. Those things worked at one time, up until the middle of the last century and dawn of the information age (where technology surpassed what was required to meet humanity's basic needs), but now actively inhibit human evolution IMHO.

So how to fix the mess we're in? I think it starts with questioning basic assumptions. Sadly, American culture seems to be racing away from that as fast as it can in these times. Dunno about the rest of the world.

Re: Young children would rather explore than get rewards

#204

Post by watwut » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 6:14 PM UTC

Chris2048 wrote: post #149

nickelpro wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure but you're missing OP's point. They're saying that novelty is the fundamental drive behind the observed behavior, not some priority towards "exploration" that children have in greater abundance than adults. The children are seeking pleasure through novelty, and the researchers are interpreting that as exploration. The parent comment illustrates how silly that is, if you substitute something that still holds plea…

Given how many adults would board a ship to sail to faraway lands in the past before much was known about the "here be dragons" places, suggests adults still value exploration.

It was quite rare endeavor and they did not done it purely for fun.

Re: Young children would rather explore than get rewards

#205

Post by SamPatt » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 6:16 PM UTC

munificent wrote: post #196

macspoofing wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Where I find this alarmingly true is when outcome/results are negative (usually ending in pain) Pain is a very good teacher. Letting children hurt themselves and learn from that (within reason, obviously) is not a bad thing.

I was hanging out with a friend who is also parent. As happens pretty often, the kids are all off somewhere else getting into trouble. Eventually, one starts wailing. My friend looks at me and says, "Ah, the sound of learning." I always tell my wife is that my goal is not to keep the kids from getting hurt, just to keep them from getting maimed. It's not just that pain is a good teacher, though it is. There is an eve…

Parenting is about using our experience to avoid catastrophic outcomes for our children until they've developed enough experience to avoid those outcomes themselves.

It's more than that, but that's at the core. Love them, model good behaviors, and don't let them do irreparable harm to themselves or others.

Re: Young children would rather explore than get rewards

#206

Post by mkr-hn » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 6:22 PM UTC

ggggtez wrote: post #201

cyberlurker wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me just be the one to say your choice of topic for exploration is incredibly cringeworthy in 2020. Also inaccurate for some parts of the adult male population. Use a better example next time.

I think the bigger problem is that the experiment wouldn't be well formed (the "value" of each image would vary between study participants). I don't think we should throw out wholesale that sexuality is a big driver of human behavior though, even if the example isn't inclusive. Changing "woman" to "person" addresses part of your concern, but still doesn't actually fix the experiment as proposed. The bigger problem is…

Compromise solution: change the example to a buffet comprised of foods from all over the world.

Re: Young children would rather explore than get rewards

#207

Post by SamPatt » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 6:24 PM UTC

cyberlurker wrote: post #199

fxtentacle wrote: post #32

While the study classifies it as exploration and claims an intrinsic reward that will die out later in life, I would describe the behavior as novelty-seeking. I'd wager that for adults, a game on a screen is just not new enough. But if you'd give adult males a choice of which female to undress, I'm pretty sure they would value "exploration" very highly again. In a similar vain, when smartphones were new, the adult po…

Let me just be the one to say your choice of topic for exploration is incredibly cringeworthy in 2020. Also inaccurate for some parts of the adult male population. Use a better example next time.

Let me just be the one to say that anyone who denies most men are sexual creatures who enjoy looking at naked women and tries to shame someone for stating that truth is incredibly cringeworthy, no matter the year.

Use some common sense next time and realize no one got hurt by speaking an obvious truth.

Re: Young children would rather explore than get rewards

#208

Post by tmaly » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 6:29 PM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #24

kqr wrote: post #4

For anyone interested in this type of stuff, I can recommend reading Drive . Briefly, human behaviour can be motivated for extrinsic and intrinsic reasons. The rewards in this article are extrinsic motivators. Exploring is rewarding in an intrinsic way; it is a strive towards autonomy, mastery, and purpose. In adults (and in older children) applying extrinsic motivators kills intrinsic motivation. Once the extrinsic…

I often see criticism of the school system like yours. I think it comes from a perspective of a fairly intelligent, self-motivated individual, probably from a family that valued education. However many children lack one or more of those factors. For them the intrinsic motivation is to play video games all day, or talk to their friends, or smoke weed. There is no intrinsic motivation for most children to learn all the…

I suspect that many kids do not understand the why behind many of the subjects being taught. What intrinsic motivation could they have under these circumstances?

Re: Young children would rather explore than get rewards

#209

Post by tmaly » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 6:35 PM UTC

irjustin wrote: post #96

Overall, this style is what Montessori-schools of teaching believe and how they operate. Essentially a self-exploratory based learning style. There's lots of benefit in letting kids simply explore. As a parent, I find I have to stop myself from pushing my child to the 'best' result and let them be. That it's okay to pick a less optimal solution. Where I find this alarmingly true is when outcome/results are negative (…

I would say that this is Montessori by only for ages 3-5.

At age 6 and above, the style of learning changes and starts to touch on more abstract concepts.

Re: Young children would rather explore than get rewards

#210

Post by tmaly » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 6:39 PM UTC

yellowapple wrote: post #29

adrianN wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often see criticism of the school system like yours. I think it comes from a perspective of a fairly intelligent, self-motivated individual, probably from a family that valued education. However many children lack one or more of those factors. For them the intrinsic motivation is to play video games all day, or talk to their friends, or smoke weed. There is no intrinsic motivation for most children to learn all the…

> I often see criticism of the school system like yours. I think it comes from a perspective of a fairly intelligent, self-motivated individual, probably from a family that valued education. I ain't vain enough to consider myself even "fairly intelligent", but I can say that I ain't very self-motivated, nor have I been since elementary school, and in hindsight my education system's insistence on strangling such intri…

> Grades are all that matter

I think this has shifted somewhat to the standardized tests mattering quite a bit now these days.

Should we not consider alternative methods or options for education? What should everything be concentrated into one public model that follows one national standard?