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"Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

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Re: "Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

#171

Post by mkl »

aazaa wrote: post #30

> One thing I want to clarify: I was the engineering manager for this team. I didn't lead strategy for Rust — that's @nikomatsakis. And together with @luke_wagner I supported @linclark in leading strategy for Wasmtime and Wasm outside the browser. Looks like Lin Clark was one of those affected: https://twitter.com/linclark/status/1293207099766431744 edit: fortunately I'm wrong and need to read more carefully.

Not like you're implying though: "I was not included in the layoffs, but I am deeply affected by them."

Re: "Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

#172

Post by Ygg2 »

lucasmullens wrote: post #41
protomyth wrote: post #32

Firefox doesn't have the developer tools that Chrome does so developers use Chrome to develop with meaning their websites work better in Chrome so Firefox is playing catch-up or just plain looks worse keeping adoption of Firefox lower. Mozilla solves the problem by killing development of developer tools insuring Firefox is an afterthought. Is there anyone in Mozilla management that has a technical bone in their body?

I'm sure management understands those teams are important. Who should they have cut instead? These are hard decisions. I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that management doesn't understand tech, they obviously do, it's Mozilla.

> Who should they have cut instead?

Maybe their AI experts? Support staff?

Just heavens forbid they reduce CEO wages.

Re: "Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

#173

Post by amenod »

dclusin wrote: post #53
protomyth wrote: post #32

Firefox doesn't have the developer tools that Chrome does so developers use Chrome to develop with meaning their websites work better in Chrome so Firefox is playing catch-up or just plain looks worse keeping adoption of Firefox lower. Mozilla solves the problem by killing development of developer tools insuring Firefox is an afterthought. Is there anyone in Mozilla management that has a technical bone in their body?

Firefox has development tools? Is there certain features that are missing? Because you can bring up a dev console and inspect elements and such. Genuine question from a not full-time frontend developer, not being snarky.

Firefox has had development tools from way before Chrome even existed. They started as an (awesome!) Firebug extension, which they later included in the browser itself (not that it matters, but it was Chrome that basically copied them at the time).

Re: "Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

#174

Post by darthrupert »

dgb23 wrote: post #114
darthrupert wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it though? Most of it seems to be hype. It’s great that programming languages get researched and improved, but do they actually improve? How is improvement measured?

> How is improvement measured? This is a good question that like to get answered too. It is reasonable to assume[0] that the language can keep its promises. However I look forward to seeing data on this in the future. [0] https://msrc-blog.microsoft.com/2019/07/22/why-rust-for-safe...

I've studied and followed Rust since before 1.0. I have no doubt that it lives up to its technical promises.

What I'm more skeptical about is whether living up to those promises yields a tangible benefit. By skeptical I don't mean to imply that using Rust doesn't yield benefits, just that I would like the PL research world to be in a place where questions like this can be solved properly.

Re: "Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

#176

Post by khuey »

joshlemer wrote: post #155
rvz wrote: post #15

This shows that open-source in general is expensive for Mozilla but cheap for the likes of Apple, Microsoft and Google who own their own Web browsers and have other open-source programming languages maintained by some of their employees full time. The actual reality of this is that they are still kept alive by a direct competitor for decades and haven't made anything to generate significant sources of revenue. Maybe…

I've been saying for years that Mozilla should have a services department to do consulting and corporate support for Rust. No idea why they'd leave millions of dollars on the floor like that.

Mozilla's revenue is $400M a year. A few million dollars in consulting revenue isn't going to move the needle.

Re: "Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

#177

Post by zettadam »

AsyncAwait wrote: post #149
_jal wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sure they'll get more than enough How sure are you? Would you be sure enough to bet your child's health care on it?

As an aside, the fact that in the U.S. your healthcare is tied to your employer is absolutely nuts.

In other countries your health insurance payments are deducted automatically from your paycheck before you get it. Is it not the same or very similar?

Re: "Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

#178

Post by aazaa »

mkl wrote: post #171
aazaa wrote: post #30

> One thing I want to clarify: I was the engineering manager for this team. I didn't lead strategy for Rust — that's @nikomatsakis. And together with @luke_wagner I supported @linclark in leading strategy for Wasmtime and Wasm outside the browser. Looks like Lin Clark was one of those affected: https://twitter.com/linclark/status/1293207099766431744 edit: fortunately I'm wrong and need to read more carefully.

Not like you're implying though: "I was not included in the layoffs, but I am deeply affected by them."

Facepalm - I botched the interpretation of that one badly. No ill intended - I actually interpreted it as she was let go for some reason. Fortunately, I'm wrong. Doesn't look like a comment can be deleted.

Re: "Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

#179

Post by liujy »

Recursing wrote: post #94
rvz wrote: post #15

This shows that open-source in general is expensive for Mozilla but cheap for the likes of Apple, Microsoft and Google who own their own Web browsers and have other open-source programming languages maintained by some of their employees full time. The actual reality of this is that they are still kept alive by a direct competitor for decades and haven't made anything to generate significant sources of revenue. Maybe…

Apple, Microsoft, and Google: * Forbid alternative browser engines on their platform. * Bundle their browser in a leading operating system. * Use their massive Web properties to drive downloads of their own browser.

> Bundle their browser in a leading operating system.

What’s the alternative here? I can’t imagine opening up a new computer and not having some kind of web browser pre-installed.

Re: "Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

#180

Post by irrational »

andruby wrote: post #133
hinkley wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This 'broken' goes all the way back to Marc Andreesen. He leaves a publicly funded team building a web browser, starts a commercial entity, and for whatever reason they don't feel they can charge for their browser funded by private equity. You could in fact buy it in a box at the local electronics store, but with the pricing I suspect most of that money went to distribution, not NCC. So they try to find other ways to…

The tool was firebug. It was a big difference when browsers didn’t offer built in tools.

Firebug is what got me to use Firefox in the beginning. I continued to use Firefox out of habit after firebug went away, though the replacement was inferior (it still is). Now... I might have to switch to Chrome, but I really don’t want to due to privacy issues. I suppose I could use it just for development.
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