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India Graduates Millions, But Too Few Are Fit to Hire

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Re: India Graduates Millions, But Too Few Are Fit to Hire

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly, as SingAlong mentioned ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2412393 ), the hiring system in India is based on grades (except for big name companies like MS or Google, that, from what my friends say, are still unfortunately doing that 90's thing of asking stupid "why are manhole covers round" type puzzles. Warning: Anecdotal Evidence. (I seem to be typing this a lot lately, I guess I need to get off HN for a b…

Based on the description in the article, they need the manhole questions more than we do :D Which is to say that since the Indian education system as described in the article doesn't teach problem solving, and since you want people who have some problem solving ability, you must ask them to solve a problem in the interview. But, I find the article confusing, it is about how a call centre company is struggling to find…

I read it as them looking for people who can read, write, and converse in English. And that even with many technical graduates, they could only hire 3 out of every 100 that came into the office just to do those tasks.

Besides that, I know from living in the Philippines for six months that a call center job can be like striking gold for people who came up poor. Poverty here is so much different from poverty in the US that it's hard for Americans to understand the motivation of people here. A call center job may suck, but it could be the difference between life in a slum without basic sewerage, and eating at western chain restaurants while texting your friends on your new smart phone. What's basically a birthright in the US is highly prized here.

Re: India Graduates Millions, But Too Few Are Fit to Hire

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on the description in the article, they need the manhole questions more than we do :D Which is to say that since the Indian education system as described in the article doesn't teach problem solving, and since you want people who have some problem solving ability, you must ask them to solve a problem in the interview. But, I find the article confusing, it is about how a call centre company is struggling to find…

I read it as them looking for people who can read, write, and converse in English. And that even with many technical graduates, they could only hire 3 out of every 100 that came into the office just to do those tasks. Besides that, I know from living in the Philippines for six months that a call center job can be like striking gold for people who came up poor. Poverty here is so much different from poverty in the US…

Very true about the Philippines. However, a crucial difference is that most educated Filipinos have very good English language skills compared to many other SE Asian countries I've been to.

Re: India Graduates Millions, But Too Few Are Fit to Hire

#123

As an Indian student who tried to get through the "system", I can relate to this. I was really into computers and programming in high school, so I decided to go into the engineering stream in the "+2" years (basically, 11th and 12th grades, as opposed to the biology stream, which supposedly preps you for medical school). I remember the parental and peer pressure particularly well: my dad was pretty much opposed to it…

Interested in CS, ended up doing Mech Engg, Worked for of those TCS/Infy type software houses in India.

Anecdote: First year in engineering, we had this computers course, so the lecturer was teaching about input and output devices (Yes they teach this even in engineering). He goes on "Computer pheriperals are either input OR output devices"

One student raised his hand and asked, "Sir, what about the touchscrens like in ATMs ?" (Touchscreen mobiles were not common, yet)

Lecturer goes silent for a minute, and replies "Son, dont try to be oversmart in my class"

-- Just something I saw. Not saying they are that bad everywhere.

Re: India Graduates Millions, But Too Few Are Fit to Hire

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One question: does India have equivalents to U.S. private colleges and universities? It seems like one of the U.S.'s major strengths comes from the fact that you don't _have_ to choose public schools, which means that a) you have many more schools to choose from and b) the competition, especially for top students, forces public schools to be somewhat better. A more minor Q, if you feel like answering it: which school…

I don't know much about the US. In India, some universities have have campuses and some don't. There are colleges affiliated to them. Then, there are govt-run colleges and private colleges. In between those two, there are aided colleges, which are run by a private trust, but funded by the govt (the trust gets to make profit while the govt pays a specific grant every year which takes care of the institute's expenditur…

> The format given to us by our in-charge lecturer was a cover page with title and student name, a separate abstract page and put these in a stick file.

@SingAlong Your lecturer was just helping prepare you for the real world. So you wouldn't forget to put cover sheets on your TPS reports!

Re: India Graduates Millions, But Too Few Are Fit to Hire

#125
A lot has changed, and very little has changed. The whole framing for the story -- that one would expect an Indian graduate to be fluent in conversational English and capable of being net-productive in the global economy -- is one way in which a lot has changed. Historically, that has been true for only the tiniest sliver of folks in India.

The outsourcing boom exploited one persistent mispricing of labor: below that tiny sliver of folks at the top of the educational pyramid in India, there was a slice of folks who had a minimal level of competency and prevailing wages which were absurdly low compared to wages in e.g. the US. I've done telephone support before. You don't have to be a genius to do it. Given that you're not looking for geniuses, you could either find a modestly educated American homemaker (or somebody trying to pay his way through college) at $10 an hour plus costs, or you could employ someone near the top of India's educational distribution for less than $2 an hour, fully-loaded.

Then apply the same economics to folks in the top of that below-the-sliver slice who are able to do back-office line-of-business CRUD apps, which are the outsourcing sweet spot.

Even though India is ginormous, though, there is a finite amount of labor in that slice, and when the global economy became aware of that mispricing, that labor got bid up very rapidly. Prior to the Lehman shock, engineering salaries in India were going up at 50% per year. My company had difficulty keeping any engineer on a project for six months -- they were unwilling to match the new market rates so the market did to them what the market does to everyone: allocates scarce resources efficiently. "You pay peanuts, you get monkeys", to quote one of our Indian engineers. (He now works for a Japanese company at a multiple of his former salary, last I heard.)

Anyhow, the overwrought reporting about the labor mispricing for that one little slice of the market apparently convinced at least some people of something which is manifestly untrue, which is that Indian education is world-class. It's not. India in 2011 is the same as India in 2001 is the same as India in 1951: it is gigantic and filled with lots of desperately poor people who do not have even minimal levels of competency for global work. (It is entirely possible than India in 2051 will not be, but they've got quite a ways to go yet.)

Re: India Graduates Millions, But Too Few Are Fit to Hire

#126
Indian who finished Engg in CS (from a less known university) here, I can pretty much attest to the story. Some facts that I want to state are below.

#1. Reason: Most of the folks joining (CS in) Engineering do so due to parental/societal pressure. Engineering degree from an established college is a sure shot way to that cozy job in BigCo Inc. through campus placements, once they clear those stupid interviews (usual stick arranging/manhole puzzles) and have a 70%+ aggregate. From there on, it's the usual journey of going onsite i.e., a long-term assignment to US(##1), a trophy wife and a big apartment, a car and so on and so forth.

#2. Practical subjects have set syllabus in many universities; essentially a set of programs which most of the folks mug up and clear through. (hence the term 'procrammers') VTU (http://www.vtu.ac.in/) is most notorious for it. Ex. Data Structures lab : http://www.vtu.ac.in/index.php/scheme-and-syllabus/766.html?... OOP lab: http://www.vtu.ac.in/index.php/scheme-and-syllabus/772.html?... Algorithms lab: http://www.vtu.ac.in/index.php/scheme-and-syllabus/785.html?... syllabus details for all branches and all semesters: http://www.vtu.ac.in/index.php/scheme-and-syllabus/299.html?...

#3. Most of the teachers (lecturers/professors) have no idea what they are teaching. Many folks take up teaching only if they cannot get through campus placements or another corporate job. A fellow from my batch who failed in Microprocessors (twice) is a lecturer teaching Microprocessors in a small town engineering college. They themselves not being aware of the right set of tools to be used, they would even promote usage of archaic tools. Almost all the colleges affiliated to VTU Belgaum, in Karnataka, state which has Bangalore as capital, use Turbo C as IDE. They have no idea what compilation/linkage is, but only know Ctrl-F9/Alt-F9. Usage of CLI is something that is seen as too technical/geeky. Most of the 'software engineers'/lecturers/professors have never used an OS other than a flavour of Windows. (Few are not even aware of the existence) Very few know about useful sites like StackOverflow or HN; and many would land up in various forums with ‘can haz codez’ requests.

That said, there are few people who land up in IT cause they love computers and programming. Numbers are not in their favour cause for every one of these truly passionate ones, there would be a thousand odd zombie types in Indian IT scenario; and the latter would stand out. The numbers of passionate ones is growing, though slowly.

But there is more to this topic, imho. Article linked by OP talks about folks not being fit enough for the job. The companies which cry foul about the crop of engineers and their capability are not really bothered about technical skills but more about 'soft-skills'. Simply because most of these firms are outsourcing service providers who would not want great programmers in their payroll but some sub-standard/mediocre guy who can keep his head down in the cube farm, conform to org-wide (sometimes ridiculous) policies/norms, follow through checklists, churn out filled up excel-sheets/documents by dozens and get the job done. I am sure many would miss this fact.

(##1) Ask any IT guy from India how someone who has been in IT but hasn't been onsite would be treated. Lepers are better off, much better.

Re: India Graduates Millions, But Too Few Are Fit to Hire

#127
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do (great) software engineers in Nepal really make 100k/year? Because I imagine that would mean a lot higher standard of living that it would in the US?

They do make 100k a year but typically after moving abroad. In my anecdotal experience, 90% of the "great" Nepali sw engineers emigrate. I do think you will see some move back and take high-paying contract work w/ them to Nepal. However, this depends on whether Nepal's political/economic climate stabilizes. By all accounts, the current situation is a mess and worsening.

That makes sense, thank you.

Re: India Graduates Millions, But Too Few Are Fit to Hire

#128
post #92

The problem seems to be poor communication in English and lack of a grasp of educational basics such as reading comprehension. These are problems to be addressed at the high school level. I attribute these squarely to the teaching methodology which is mostly memorization with no encouragement to creativity whatsoever. On top of this, the teachers in most schools are utterly incompetent and hence lack enthusiasm. One…

I have my doubts about the quality of computer education imparted by the likes of NIIT. Years ago, one of my non technical friends wanted to join a C/C++ course at one of their centers. Their claim was they'd teach him both in 6 months, part time. I tagged along with him on the first day and was generally trolling around, asking their faculty if they teach Assembly language. As expected, not one of them had heard of it. One of the more ludicrous responses was something like "What's assembly, is it something like pseudo-code ?".

Re: India Graduates Millions, But Too Few Are Fit to Hire

#129

A lot has changed, and very little has changed. The whole framing for the story -- that one would expect an Indian graduate to be fluent in conversational English and capable of being net-productive in the global economy -- is one way in which a lot has changed. Historically, that has been true for only the tiniest sliver of folks in India. The outsourcing boom exploited one persistent mispricing of labor: below that…

I was speaking with a potential client concerning their current outsourcing in India. Not happy with their outsourcing in India, that potential client said "I need people who can think".

I've been working in enterprise IT (and small business) for about 5 years now. I've never had a good experience in India. There are the few who do come over to the US (on visas) that are exceptional (and possibly in a relative sense) but again don't represent the whole, and nor does my bad experience represent the whole for that matter. The fact is that in more than one occasion (it's actually countless) I've had to hand-hold Indian colleagues on how to fix an issue. It astounds me that this price difference can ever achieve it's value and more importantly do it sustainably over time (re: difficulty keeping an engineer for six months).

Our company has outsourcing in Romania and it's by far better than any other outsourcing I've worked with. I think we've found that "tiniest sliver of folk" in Romania, but it doesn't mean the streets are filled with these type of people, nor do I think we can expand to create a managed service hub of thousands of Romania techies.

At the end of the day I always have to fall back on "you pay for what you get".

Re: India Graduates Millions, But Too Few Are Fit to Hire

#130

A lot has changed, and very little has changed. The whole framing for the story -- that one would expect an Indian graduate to be fluent in conversational English and capable of being net-productive in the global economy -- is one way in which a lot has changed. Historically, that has been true for only the tiniest sliver of folks in India. The outsourcing boom exploited one persistent mispricing of labor: below that…

Very good points, put concisely & effectively. Outsourcing and it's impact on technical education in India is a topic that requires a post on it's own.
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