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Young children would rather explore than get rewards

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Re: Young children would rather explore than get rewards

#31
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This describes 'work' life pretty well, with extrinsic motivation being a salary. If that spigot were shut off there certainly would be little desire to do the task for most.

I think for most people a salary is just the constant, like air. You get it and it’s the reason you show up everyday. But your salary doesn’t change if you work hard or slack. It’s not a reward for performance. Similar to how you’d die without breathing but you don’t feel rewarded for every breath. You wouldn’t breathe more than someone else to get more alive.

> But your salary doesn’t change if you work hard or slack. It’s not a reward for performance.

Maybe not in an immediate sense, but working hard ostensibly makes it more likely to get promoted to a position with a higher salary, while slacking ostensibly makes it more likely to get demoted or fired.

Of course, I say "ostensibly" because the real world doesn't really work like that, with hard workers getting shafted and lazy pricks schmoozing and politicking their way into the very positions those hard workers should've gotten. It'd be disheartening, but it happens to be a decent treatment for my impostor syndrome: everyone else is an impostor, too, so might as well just play along.

Re: Young children would rather explore than get rewards

#32
While the study classifies it as exploration and claims an intrinsic reward that will die out later in life, I would describe the behavior as novelty-seeking.

I'd wager that for adults, a game on a screen is just not new enough. But if you'd give adult males a choice of which female to undress, I'm pretty sure they would value "exploration" very highly again.

In a similar vain, when smartphones were new, the adult population was very active at buying new ones, comparing, and exploring the market. Now that we've had them for some years, phone upgrades have become a necessity and a lot less exciting.

So my theory would be that there is no loss in the intrinsic motivation, there is a loss in the amount of novelty.

If that is correct, then our school system is actually very appropriate even for highly intrinsically motivated kids, because they are introduced to new topics and areas of knowledge that are (hopefully) new to them.

That also aligns with my personal experience. While I hated getting up early and the concept of sitting in a chair just listening, I was excited about all the different things they showed me. And I liked best the teachers that would mention slightly irrelevant side details just for the fun of it.

Re: Young children would rather explore than get rewards

#34
post #24
post #4

For anyone interested in this type of stuff, I can recommend reading Drive . Briefly, human behaviour can be motivated for extrinsic and intrinsic reasons. The rewards in this article are extrinsic motivators. Exploring is rewarding in an intrinsic way; it is a strive towards autonomy, mastery, and purpose. In adults (and in older children) applying extrinsic motivators kills intrinsic motivation. Once the extrinsic…

I often see criticism of the school system like yours. I think it comes from a perspective of a fairly intelligent, self-motivated individual, probably from a family that valued education. However many children lack one or more of those factors. For them the intrinsic motivation is to play video games all day, or talk to their friends, or smoke weed. There is no intrinsic motivation for most children to learn all the…

Right. You're touching on another important factor: everyone, and especially children, want to belong to a group. They do this by adopting values similar to their peers.

When those peer groups have values that include playing video games and exclude exploring learning, it's very hard to motivate members of the group to explore learning. I don't actually have any data on this, but I suspect that applies even under extrinsic motivators. In other words, telling the cool kids who hate school that they will get bad grades if they don't learn more will not make them learn more. It will simply become a badge of honour to have bad grades.

Perhaps the single most important job of a teacher is to attempt to create a single group of the class[1] with which every student identifies, and then imbue that group with the value of learning.

I don't think the way to do this is by promising rewards (good grades) for good performance (doing exactly what the teacher asks.) The way to do it is to encourage self-directed exploration and mastery, with a sense of a greater good. (This sounds like something out of an Italian-inspired educational philosophy, but as far as I'm concerned, it's just rather simple reasoning from the principles of motivation and social behaviour as we know them.)

In the end, this is a really tough problem. If children are convinced (based on interactions with their peer groups) that learning sucks, then it's really hard to change their mind. This goes for adults as well. I'm not saying there's a magic formula to make everything work out right.

What I'm saying is that there are two insufficient and contradictory methods. I think one of them is slightly less bad than the other one.

[1]: It might sound like creating multiple groups would be easier and accomplish the same thing, but the danger with that is that small natural variations in the value of learning between these groups could get exaggerated in an attempt to create group identities. I.e. if one group is just about considered more school-happy than the other group, then that will become a point both groups can use to distinguish between themselves: one group will intentionally become more ignorant of the benefits of learning to separate its members from the other. It has to be one single group for them to all adopt the same value of learning.

Edit: I almost forgot. For more on this, see The Nurture Assumption – well worth a read.

Re: Young children would rather explore than get rewards

#35
post #24
post #4

For anyone interested in this type of stuff, I can recommend reading Drive . Briefly, human behaviour can be motivated for extrinsic and intrinsic reasons. The rewards in this article are extrinsic motivators. Exploring is rewarding in an intrinsic way; it is a strive towards autonomy, mastery, and purpose. In adults (and in older children) applying extrinsic motivators kills intrinsic motivation. Once the extrinsic…

I often see criticism of the school system like yours. I think it comes from a perspective of a fairly intelligent, self-motivated individual, probably from a family that valued education. However many children lack one or more of those factors. For them the intrinsic motivation is to play video games all day, or talk to their friends, or smoke weed. There is no intrinsic motivation for most children to learn all the…

I think you're both kinda right?

Drive is great. Leverage it heavily as a manager.

But when it comes to kids, the problems I see are that (a) cognitively speaking, children are not tiny adults; and (b) if you want them to be successful and happy adults, you need to give kids the ability to work through mountains of "I Need To Do This Even Though It Sucks"

Cognitive development is an amazing process to watch -- you can see as brains grow and develop a wide variety of skills we take for granted.

But what that means is that you can't treat a six-year-old as an adult.

Their thinking is likely highly egocentric, because they have not yet developed the ability to realize that "my feelings and wants" are different from "other peoples' feelings and wants".

In their world, when they like Pokemon, they literally believe that everybody in the world feels the same way about Pokemon that they do. They just haven't yet gained the ability to handle that concept.

So, up to age eleven or so, you need to put enough structure around children to deal with their cognitive development path. Rules that are consistently enforced are critical (it's also good if those rules, in fact, make sense), with a gradual loosening of constraints as the child grows the ability to handle greater responsibilities.

This path continues from eleven -- when, cognitively, your child is now a functioning adult -- onwards towards the age of majority.

You still need to provide structure, but with enough freedom and ability to bend-or-change the rules such that the child can learn how to make their own decisions. Your goal is ramp them towards the full set of adult responsibilities, as quickly as they are able to handle it.

The problem with a lot of "traditional" education is that it failed to do the latter in a lot of ways -- rigid structure until age of majority, and then bam!, you're an adult, good luck.

This is compounded by how much regulation and how little slack there is in society. In the 70s, teenagers commonly brought rifles to school (because they were on the shooting team, or going hunting afterwards). Nowadays, kids are getting expelled for accidentally forgetting a tiny, micro-sized pocketknife.

The problem with "modern" education is that there is no expectation that you will ever assume responsibility. If you've dealt with a lot of recent graduates, you probably know what I mean. They have been denied much of the experience required for them to mature as adults, all in the name of keeping them "safe".

Including being "safe" from boredom. Which relates to giving kids the ability to get through mountains of drudgery.

That skill is so critical.

And I didn't really master it until I was an adult, much to my disadvantage.

If Elon Musk and every one of his employees were to vanish tomorrow, I'd be sad. SpaceX is cool. But my life would go on.

If the organization that handles sewage for my city were to vanish tomorrow, I would soon be, quite literally, in a world of shit.

I doubt that working for a sewage treatment plant offers much in the way of Autonomy. Mastery, perhaps? Purpose, absolutely.

And I doubt most kids grow up dreaming of being a waste engineer.

It's a hard job, and it demands grit. But that job makes modern life possible, and I don't see us setting up kids to be able to tackle both kinds of challenges.

Re: Young children would rather explore than get rewards

#36
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then again, if one is more interested in practically applicable tips, the book How To Talk So Kids Will Listen... And Listen So Kids Will Talk is great too -- for all kinds of interpersonal relationships. It covers empathy (actually listening and confirming feelings) but is largely about how to enable extrinsic motivation, through encouraging autonomy, mastery, and purpose. One rather concrete example is that the aut…

The question trick only works for so long. Pretty soon your kids realize there is always a third option that can be negotiated to. (Which is good) About that time you need to explain why we have regular baths.

But it's great! They learn to pick-up when they're 'tricked' and they learn to chose.

Man, I remember when I started deciding things for myself... at 16-17! 'so you want to go to prep school, university, or eng. school?' WTF I don't even know what I want for dinner... I feel this is something that needs to be trained the soonest possible. See what you feel when asked to chose. Decide something. See how you feel when you've taken option A or B (or feel when you don't like any of the available options! And learn to think outside the box!). See what happens when you change your mind before you started A. Or after you've started B and think 'I should have done A'. With your parents, friends, teachers. It's amazing how teaching this to my little kids with a positive and caring attitude has shown me how hard and important it all is! And it's even harder for collective decisions!

Something amazing for twin children: they also have the opportunity (or the burden sometimes) to see how their choices affect others and how important negociating, defending, compromising is.

Those books that GP cited are gold. The whole Positive Education movement is, I think, a way to a better future, with balanced and reasonable members of the citizenry. And I ache for all the children with have parents that don't even have the tiniest bit of empathy and interest for their children.

Re: Young children would rather explore than get rewards

#37
post #4

For anyone interested in this type of stuff, I can recommend reading Drive . Briefly, human behaviour can be motivated for extrinsic and intrinsic reasons. The rewards in this article are extrinsic motivators. Exploring is rewarding in an intrinsic way; it is a strive towards autonomy, mastery, and purpose. In adults (and in older children) applying extrinsic motivators kills intrinsic motivation. Once the extrinsic…

This is all fine and good but it misses some much more fundamental drivers, not those that are narrowly instinctive.

If you want to play the violin beautifully, you have to practice for 10 years, there's no way around it.

If you want to do important things, you have to train in all sorts of capacities, and put in a lot of sweat.

One of the things that differentiates humans from beasts is that we have at least some sense of higher purpose and many of us derive considerable fulfilment from that.

For the most part, most of our education is necessary - and the ability to focus, to plan, to think beyond just a few steps, to control one's desires and emotions, to concentrate and balance one's life energies - this requires education and maturity.

Yes, it can be stifling in some ways, that's ok, we want our doctors and accountants (mostly) to be small-c conservatives. Others can write Operas.

But none of it comes without a formal journey at least in some capacity.

It's a neat experiment but I think it's hard to determine the results. The novelty of exploration in that context just might not be 'novelty' from the adults perspective. Try trading rewards for truly novel things, like, jumping out of planes, I wonder what the result would be.

Re: Young children would rather explore than get rewards

#38
post #24
post #4

For anyone interested in this type of stuff, I can recommend reading Drive . Briefly, human behaviour can be motivated for extrinsic and intrinsic reasons. The rewards in this article are extrinsic motivators. Exploring is rewarding in an intrinsic way; it is a strive towards autonomy, mastery, and purpose. In adults (and in older children) applying extrinsic motivators kills intrinsic motivation. Once the extrinsic…

I often see criticism of the school system like yours. I think it comes from a perspective of a fairly intelligent, self-motivated individual, probably from a family that valued education. However many children lack one or more of those factors. For them the intrinsic motivation is to play video games all day, or talk to their friends, or smoke weed. There is no intrinsic motivation for most children to learn all the…

> However many children lack one or more of those factors. For them the intrinsic motivation is to play video games all day, or talk to their friends, or smoke weed.

Totally unlike adults then.

Re: Young children would rather explore than get rewards

#39
post #24
post #4

For anyone interested in this type of stuff, I can recommend reading Drive . Briefly, human behaviour can be motivated for extrinsic and intrinsic reasons. The rewards in this article are extrinsic motivators. Exploring is rewarding in an intrinsic way; it is a strive towards autonomy, mastery, and purpose. In adults (and in older children) applying extrinsic motivators kills intrinsic motivation. Once the extrinsic…

I often see criticism of the school system like yours. I think it comes from a perspective of a fairly intelligent, self-motivated individual, probably from a family that valued education. However many children lack one or more of those factors. For them the intrinsic motivation is to play video games all day, or talk to their friends, or smoke weed. There is no intrinsic motivation for most children to learn all the…

To be fair, even for an intelligent and educated person it's prettty likely to end with a worse benefit footprint to the world (environmentally & socially) than being with friends and playing video games / smoking weed.

Re: Young children would rather explore than get rewards

#40
post #24
post #4

For anyone interested in this type of stuff, I can recommend reading Drive . Briefly, human behaviour can be motivated for extrinsic and intrinsic reasons. The rewards in this article are extrinsic motivators. Exploring is rewarding in an intrinsic way; it is a strive towards autonomy, mastery, and purpose. In adults (and in older children) applying extrinsic motivators kills intrinsic motivation. Once the extrinsic…

I often see criticism of the school system like yours. I think it comes from a perspective of a fairly intelligent, self-motivated individual, probably from a family that valued education. However many children lack one or more of those factors. For them the intrinsic motivation is to play video games all day, or talk to their friends, or smoke weed. There is no intrinsic motivation for most children to learn all the…

As someone who in his (mandatory in my country) social year worked with "difficult" kids: for nearly every kid there is intrinsic motivations you can find. Of course that isn't easy and requires much more teachers and a bit more flexibility when it comes to which topics to learn, but good education is making every bodies life better and should be IMO much higher valued both in societal and monetary terms.
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