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Young children would rather explore than get rewards

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Re: Young children would rather explore than get rewards

#11

Post by kqr »

andrei_says_ wrote: post #9
kqr wrote: post #4

For anyone interested in this type of stuff, I can recommend reading Drive . Briefly, human behaviour can be motivated for extrinsic and intrinsic reasons. The rewards in this article are extrinsic motivators. Exploring is rewarding in an intrinsic way; it is a strive towards autonomy, mastery, and purpose. In adults (and in older children) applying extrinsic motivators kills intrinsic motivation. Once the extrinsic…

Also Alfie Kohn’s Punished by Rewards, a thick tome dedicated to the research and reasons of how and why punishment and rewards don’t teach what’s intended and don’t motivate as intended... and how extrinsic motivation kills intrinsic motivation. Withdrawing rewards is punishment so both are really the same. Human beings are not designed to be trained like rats and birds, regardless of what many believe. If your kid…

Punished by Rewards is in my reading heap but rather far down. Maybe I should prioritise it slightly higher.

> Human beings are not designed to be trained like rats and birds, regardless of what many believe.

I'd just want to add that according to Drive, training humans like rats and birds work great... If blind obedience, conformity, and minimal quality is something you're looking for -- which many factory line type managers wanted, for a very long time (and in many cases probably still do, sadly.)

Damnit, if Punished by Rewards contradicts this, I have to read it now, don't I?

Re: Young children would rather explore than get rewards

#12

Post by discordance »

kqr wrote: post #4

For anyone interested in this type of stuff, I can recommend reading Drive . Briefly, human behaviour can be motivated for extrinsic and intrinsic reasons. The rewards in this article are extrinsic motivators. Exploring is rewarding in an intrinsic way; it is a strive towards autonomy, mastery, and purpose. In adults (and in older children) applying extrinsic motivators kills intrinsic motivation. Once the extrinsic…

This describes 'work' life pretty well, with extrinsic motivation being a salary. If that spigot were shut off there certainly would be little desire to do the task for most.

Re: Young children would rather explore than get rewards

#13

Post by kqr »

discordance wrote: post #12
kqr wrote: post #4

For anyone interested in this type of stuff, I can recommend reading Drive . Briefly, human behaviour can be motivated for extrinsic and intrinsic reasons. The rewards in this article are extrinsic motivators. Exploring is rewarding in an intrinsic way; it is a strive towards autonomy, mastery, and purpose. In adults (and in older children) applying extrinsic motivators kills intrinsic motivation. Once the extrinsic…

This describes 'work' life pretty well, with extrinsic motivation being a salary. If that spigot were shut off there certainly would be little desire to do the task for most.

True as that may be, I think the argument that resonated with me is that there is an even more primitive type of motivation than extrinsic: the drive to survive. (Or, more generally, physical and emotional needs.)

Under that hypothesis, the salary is there to take physical needs as a motivator off the table. If an employee has to worry about physical needs, there's no room at all for any other concern.

Once the salary is sufficient to no longer be a point of worry (will I afford my mortgage, can I support my spouse, etc) only then will additional money serve as extrinsic motivation.

(Which of course spells disaster for things like performance bonuses, which (a) are impossible to target at the right people (see Deming for more on that) and (b) literally designed to stop coming, reducing motivation overall.)

Re: Young children would rather explore than get rewards

#15

Post by Swizec »

discordance wrote: post #12
kqr wrote: post #4

For anyone interested in this type of stuff, I can recommend reading Drive . Briefly, human behaviour can be motivated for extrinsic and intrinsic reasons. The rewards in this article are extrinsic motivators. Exploring is rewarding in an intrinsic way; it is a strive towards autonomy, mastery, and purpose. In adults (and in older children) applying extrinsic motivators kills intrinsic motivation. Once the extrinsic…

This describes 'work' life pretty well, with extrinsic motivation being a salary. If that spigot were shut off there certainly would be little desire to do the task for most.

I think for most people a salary is just the constant, like air. You get it and it’s the reason you show up everyday.

But your salary doesn’t change if you work hard or slack. It’s not a reward for performance.

Similar to how you’d die without breathing but you don’t feel rewarded for every breath. You wouldn’t breathe more than someone else to get more alive.

Re: Young children would rather explore than get rewards

#16

Post by jay_kyburz »

kqr wrote: post #10
kqr wrote: post #4

For anyone interested in this type of stuff, I can recommend reading Drive . Briefly, human behaviour can be motivated for extrinsic and intrinsic reasons. The rewards in this article are extrinsic motivators. Exploring is rewarding in an intrinsic way; it is a strive towards autonomy, mastery, and purpose. In adults (and in older children) applying extrinsic motivators kills intrinsic motivation. Once the extrinsic…

Then again, if one is more interested in practically applicable tips, the book How To Talk So Kids Will Listen... And Listen So Kids Will Talk is great too -- for all kinds of interpersonal relationships. It covers empathy (actually listening and confirming feelings) but is largely about how to enable extrinsic motivation, through encouraging autonomy, mastery, and purpose. One rather concrete example is that the aut…

The question trick only works for so long. Pretty soon your kids realize there is always a third option that can be negotiated to. (Which is good)

About that time you need to explain why we have regular baths.

Re: Young children would rather explore than get rewards

#17

Post by brnt »

I guess I must have bever lost the child in me. I've been a fan of open world games, just so I can roam the world. I sometimes dont even play the storyline at all. I still don't like that Steam added 'achievements' that I can't turn off, I'll be in charge of what constitutes a goal thank you very much :)

Another poster had an interesting observation about academia vs corporate work. I'm 33 and still in academia, and I now realize a large part of that is the freedom it provides. I've see salary as a score on someone else's scoreboard, and very uninteresting for that reason. OK, I'm old enough to have experienced a person needs income for practical reasons, but I'm not going to work for it ;)

I'm allergic to competition, scores, rewards, prestige, I guess that makes me child-like?

Re: Young children would rather explore than get rewards

#19

Post by mamurphy »

brnt wrote: post #17

I guess I must have bever lost the child in me. I've been a fan of open world games, just so I can roam the world. I sometimes dont even play the storyline at all. I still don't like that Steam added 'achievements' that I can't turn off, I'll be in charge of what constitutes a goal thank you very much :) Another poster had an interesting observation about academia vs corporate work. I'm 33 and still in academia, and…

>I'm 33 and still in academia, I'm allergic to competition, scores, rewards, prestige

I had been under the impression that academia was mostly very competitive to be able to get career (tenure track) positions. Are you not aiming for that, is it less competitive in your field, or am I missing something else?

Re: Young children would rather explore than get rewards

#20

Post by brnt »

mamurphy wrote: post #19
brnt wrote: post #17

I guess I must have bever lost the child in me. I've been a fan of open world games, just so I can roam the world. I sometimes dont even play the storyline at all. I still don't like that Steam added 'achievements' that I can't turn off, I'll be in charge of what constitutes a goal thank you very much :) Another poster had an interesting observation about academia vs corporate work. I'm 33 and still in academia, and…

>I'm 33 and still in academia, I'm allergic to competition, scores, rewards, prestige I had been under the impression that academia was mostly very competitive to be able to get career (tenure track) positions. Are you not aiming for that, is it less competitive in your field, or am I missing something else?

Indeed, I moved into a supportive role (software dev, what else) for that reason. Tenure is worse than corporate.
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