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A Darker View of the Renaissance

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Re: A Darker View of the Renaissance

#11

Post by dbtc »

throw0101a wrote: post #9

There's a line I ran across from the movie The Third Man where the character Harry Lime says: > In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed—but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love, 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Man

And then Italy had Roman Catholics, Spanish, Austrian, and French occupations, fascists, a civil war, neofascists...

While Switzerland has become quite good at making clocks.

Re: A Darker View of the Renaissance

#12

Post by dbtc »

chrisco255 wrote: post #8
seiferteric wrote: post #5

I've been kind of wondering if we will start to see an increase in anti-enlightenment arguments given the issues we face with no clear way out. Given climate change for example, was the industrial revolution a mistake? If it was an inevitable consequence of the enlightenment era, then was that a mistake? Too early to tell, but if we end up destroying ourselves I guess the answer would have to be "yes", but it's a har…

Given the 1C increase in global average temps, should we go back to subsistence farming and 1/10th of the population? I wonder if you went back in time and asked your ancestors that question. I believe, after you explained to them how you spend most of your day browsing with a magic rectangle, sit in cush air conditioned environments, have access to full motion and interactive media and entertainment, can order nearl…

They might ask: Where are all of the happy people? Why does everyone still have to work so much and why do they all want more than they have?

Re: A Darker View of the Renaissance

#13

Post by schemy »

>the subject of Leonardo da Vinci’s Mona Lisa was married to a slave trader; one possible model for Titian’s Venus of Urbino, a famous Venetian courtesan, was gang-raped; and the Florentine Republic symbolized by Michelangelo’s David came to an end in 1530 with the sack of the city and ensuing slaughter of thousands.

This is as jarring as listing the injuries during a riot: two paper cuts, one beheading, a sprained ankle.

Who cares about a gang rape when a sack involved a few hundred of them at the same time?

Re: A Darker View of the Renaissance

#14

Post by xnyan »

tus88 wrote: post #3

Yeah what a pity the dark ages came to and end. /s

The term “dark ages” is a periodization popularized in the mid 19h century. It’s not commonly used in academic discourse because it is nonspecific and subjective in its definition.

Re: A Darker View of the Renaissance

#15

Post by schemy »

dantheman wrote: post #6
seiferteric wrote: post #5

I've been kind of wondering if we will start to see an increase in anti-enlightenment arguments given the issues we face with no clear way out. Given climate change for example, was the industrial revolution a mistake? If it was an inevitable consequence of the enlightenment era, then was that a mistake? Too early to tell, but if we end up destroying ourselves I guess the answer would have to be "yes", but it's a har…

I'll take climate change for modern medicine and technology. I think any anti-enlightment thinkers are really need to understand what life was like before that.

But that would mean they believe in history. It's after all just dead white men.

Re: A Darker View of the Renaissance

#16

Post by recursivedoubts »

throw0101a wrote: post #9

There's a line I ran across from the movie The Third Man where the character Harry Lime says: > In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed—but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love, 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Man

I have always found this a nearly unassailable argument in favour of the swiss model.

Re: A Darker View of the Renaissance

#17

Post by chrisco255 »

grugagag wrote: post #10
chrisco255 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the 1C increase in global average temps, should we go back to subsistence farming and 1/10th of the population? I wonder if you went back in time and asked your ancestors that question. I believe, after you explained to them how you spend most of your day browsing with a magic rectangle, sit in cush air conditioned environments, have access to full motion and interactive media and entertainment, can order nearl…

But the catch is not well put, it’s not going to be just 1C hotter which in my oppinion is off, but the erosion of the coastlines, the near total melting of polar glaciers round, massive rise in sea levels, mass extinctions of many species, chaos and war amongst the remaining people for the diminishing resources, etcetera. All these for technology and comfort at the hands of humans with enormous costs for everything…

I don't know if you've seen the latest, but Greenland just had record ice gain during the middle of the ordinary melt season, after an already substantially strong year (and 3 out of the last 4 years have seen substantial gains): http://polarportal.dk/en/greenland/surface-conditions/ we are thousands of years away from polar melting, if ever.

We have less war than they did prior to the industrial revolution. Prior to industrial revolution we didn't even have the resources to care about extinctions and they were happening anyways.

Re: A Darker View of the Renaissance

#18

Post by totetsu »

chrisco255 wrote: post #8
seiferteric wrote: post #5

I've been kind of wondering if we will start to see an increase in anti-enlightenment arguments given the issues we face with no clear way out. Given climate change for example, was the industrial revolution a mistake? If it was an inevitable consequence of the enlightenment era, then was that a mistake? Too early to tell, but if we end up destroying ourselves I guess the answer would have to be "yes", but it's a har…

Given the 1C increase in global average temps, should we go back to subsistence farming and 1/10th of the population? I wonder if you went back in time and asked your ancestors that question. I believe, after you explained to them how you spend most of your day browsing with a magic rectangle, sit in cush air conditioned environments, have access to full motion and interactive media and entertainment, can order nearl…

I wonder if you really tried to put yourself in the shoes of one of your ancestors, and imagine the kind of world they lived in and the kind of things they valued would your belief change any? This is a common line of discourse, but it always seems to me to lack empathy beyond this present moment. Could you sell them on how the sausage was made and not just the sizzle?

Re: A Darker View of the Renaissance

#19

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

seiferteric wrote: post #5

I've been kind of wondering if we will start to see an increase in anti-enlightenment arguments given the issues we face with no clear way out. Given climate change for example, was the industrial revolution a mistake? If it was an inevitable consequence of the enlightenment era, then was that a mistake? Too early to tell, but if we end up destroying ourselves I guess the answer would have to be "yes", but it's a har…

Prior to the Industrial Revolution, the vast majority of people lived in what we'd today call "soul-crushing poverty", and it wasn't uncommon to have bad harvest years where a couple percent of a nation's population starved to death. There's no way climate change is bad enough to make a world where shirts are luxury items preferable.

Re: A Darker View of the Renaissance

#20

Post by dumbfoundded »

throw0101a wrote: post #9

There's a line I ran across from the movie The Third Man where the character Harry Lime says: > In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed—but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love, 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Man

Italy is also a lot bigger.
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