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The Hatpin Peril (2014)

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#41

Post by oh_sigh »

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #32
jschwartzi wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should consider it from the point of view of someone who is very vulnerable to assault, who is not at all on an even footing with her potential assailant, and who is in a confined and semi-private space with her assailant. Stabbing someone who invades your personal space slowly over the course of the trip, culminating in putting their arm around your shoulders. As a man I would start throwing elbows, but stabbing…

The mental gymnastics you are doing are extreme. STABBING someone in response to this is absolutely not ok. There is no consistent social norm reasoning that could make it so. What if I have a blood clotting disorder? You stab me in my arm and I die. This is ok as an immediate reaction? What if I only accidentally bumped you because the subway jerked? It’s just crazy. I agree if you really are in a position of self-d…

> What if I have a blood clotting disorder?

I guess the safest answer is don't go around groping strangers.

> What if I only accidentally bumped you because the subway jerked?

I'm a male who has ridden NYC subways for 15+ years, and have been groped probably a half dozen times. It is clear when it happens versus when a bump happens.

Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#42

Post by [deleted] »

deeblering4 wrote: post #28

Reminds me of a comedian who said “if I have $1000 dollars in my pocket while walking home at night, I have something that another man wants to take from me and it makes me feel scared. This is how it must feel to be a woman all the time, always having something that another man wants to take from you.” I’m paraphrasing, but I thought this was an interesting perspective into a kind of vulnerability that a lot of men…

[deleted]

Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#43

Post by lolc »

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #32
jschwartzi wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should consider it from the point of view of someone who is very vulnerable to assault, who is not at all on an even footing with her potential assailant, and who is in a confined and semi-private space with her assailant. Stabbing someone who invades your personal space slowly over the course of the trip, culminating in putting their arm around your shoulders. As a man I would start throwing elbows, but stabbing…

The mental gymnastics you are doing are extreme. STABBING someone in response to this is absolutely not ok. There is no consistent social norm reasoning that could make it so. What if I have a blood clotting disorder? You stab me in my arm and I die. This is ok as an immediate reaction? What if I only accidentally bumped you because the subway jerked? It’s just crazy. I agree if you really are in a position of self-d…

Some attacks are most effectively prevented by the threat of immediate, excessive violence. It was just a novelty that females would operate without a male intermediate. Which is why it made news.

Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#44

Post by fxtentacle »

epicureanideal wrote: post #2

> "When he lifted his arm and draped it low across her back, Leoti had enough. In a move that would thrill victim of modern-day subway harassment, she reached for her hatpin—nearly a foot long—and plunged it into the meat of the man’s arm. He let out a terrible scream and left the coach at the next stop." Although what the man did is inappropriate, stabbing him seems excessive. She could've first asked him to stop. >…

Wow, this comment got downvoted into oblivion really quick. It doesn't read as insensitive or provocative to me. I was hoping that people on HN would have the mental ability to tolerate an opinion that they disagree with and engage it with counter-arguments. But apparently, we're canceling unwanted ideas instead.

If I remember correctly, a downvote is for spam, attacks, or other things unrelated to the discussion, not for disagreeing with someone.

Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#46

Post by notsureaboutpg »

not2b wrote: post #30

I'm sure than in almost all of these cases, the woman had already led the man know that she objected to his attacks (and groping a woman without permission is an attack), either verbally, nonverbally, or both, and the idiot persisted. I'm all for the "hatpin girls".

In esssence, it is almost exactly like medieval days when most people used to carry some kind of sword or knife on them.

A hatpin is essentially a concealed carry weapon. What's wrong with that? It's a good idea to be armed in public. People are crazy, you should be able to defend yourself from anyone.

Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#47

Post by notsureaboutpg »

whatshisface wrote: post #18
epicureanideal wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think stabbing someone has a very high chance of making the situation far more dangerous than just asking the person to stop. Also, it has been true for centuries that a woman screaming "help!" would draw the attention of all the men in the area (for example the carriage driver in this case) who would be eager to beat the other man to a pulp if he didn't stop harassing her. Women and children first into the lifeboa…

> Also, it has been true for centuries that a woman screaming "help!" would draw the attention of all the men in the area (for example the carriage driver in this case) who would be eager to beat the other man to a pulp if he didn't stop harassing her. Is that really true?

It is the way Emmett Till died

Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#48

Post by CarbyAu »

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #32
jschwartzi wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should consider it from the point of view of someone who is very vulnerable to assault, who is not at all on an even footing with her potential assailant, and who is in a confined and semi-private space with her assailant. Stabbing someone who invades your personal space slowly over the course of the trip, culminating in putting their arm around your shoulders. As a man I would start throwing elbows, but stabbing…

The mental gymnastics you are doing are extreme. STABBING someone in response to this is absolutely not ok. There is no consistent social norm reasoning that could make it so. What if I have a blood clotting disorder? You stab me in my arm and I die. This is ok as an immediate reaction? What if I only accidentally bumped you because the subway jerked? It’s just crazy. I agree if you really are in a position of self-d…

The mental gymnastics you are doing are extreme. STABBING someone in response to this is absolutely not ok. There is no consistent social norm reasoning that could make it so.

What you describe as mental gymnastics seems straightforward to me. As for what you perceive as escalation. The situation has already escalated:

Confined space, obvious aggressor doing OBVIOUSLY wrong thing to a vulnerable, complete stranger. There is no way to read their intent as friendly at that point. This is self defence.

Hence your other later reasonable sentence DOES apply.

in a position of self-defense, reaching for any countermeasures you can makes sense, stabbing with a random object included

About the only thing you said that was reasonable.

As for your lame "blood clotting" mental gymnastics, this is extra information not available at the time. You can't make decisions on information you don't have or can't reasonably assume. If you assume your blood clotting disorder argument to be valid then in a split second of self-defence:

- I need to canvass the knowledge of the medical establishment to know every possible medical condition a person could have and...

- avoid triggering every such possibility.

Tell me again that your "blood clotting" argument makes sense.

And even assuming it played out this way, I would be unhappy a person died, but given the information at the time I wouldn't regret the decision/action one iota. Morally clean and happy to sleep like a baby.

Accidental bump? Not what this was. Another mental gymnastic flip on your part.

This was a simple moment of self defence with a measured (She didn't stab him in the face) - but not unwarranted - action.

Edit:text flow, no words deleted.

Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#49

Post by itshardbeing »

In response to some comments:

If someone breaks down your door and enters your house, I (and I think most others) see nothing wrong with you defending yourself.

Why is it different here? It doesn't matter if their intention is to rob you or not.

Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#50

Post by CarbyAu »

ramoneguru wrote: post #38
deeblering4 wrote: post #28

Reminds me of a comedian who said “if I have $1000 dollars in my pocket while walking home at night, I have something that another man wants to take from me and it makes me feel scared. This is how it must feel to be a woman all the time, always having something that another man wants to take from you.” I’m paraphrasing, but I thought this was an interesting perspective into a kind of vulnerability that a lot of men…

Dave Chapelle - Bird Revelation. I used to do shows for drug dealers that wanted to clean their money up. One time I did a real good set, and these motherf--kers called me into the back room. They gave me $25,000 in cash […] I jumped on the subway and started heading towards Brooklyn at one o’clock in the morning. Never been that terrified in my life. I’d never in my life had something that somebody else would want.…

While a good metaphor it still misses out easy identification. Women are often easily identifiable as such. Take that $25000 and strap it to the front of your chest...
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