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The Hatpin Peril (2014)

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#31

Post by spanhandler »

whatshisface wrote: post #18
epicureanideal wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think stabbing someone has a very high chance of making the situation far more dangerous than just asking the person to stop. Also, it has been true for centuries that a woman screaming "help!" would draw the attention of all the men in the area (for example the carriage driver in this case) who would be eager to beat the other man to a pulp if he didn't stop harassing her. Women and children first into the lifeboa…

> Also, it has been true for centuries that a woman screaming "help!" would draw the attention of all the men in the area (for example the carriage driver in this case) who would be eager to beat the other man to a pulp if he didn't stop harassing her. Is that really true?

Heavily testified as a norm in early 20th century film, though of course that doesn't mean it was in reality.

Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#32

Post by mlthoughts2018 »

jschwartzi wrote: post #26
mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Responding by STABBING someone, as a measure of first defense, is ludicrous, disproportionate, and far more immoral than the harassment leading to it. The harassment is ALSO TERRIBLE. Just not STABBINGLY so.

You should consider it from the point of view of someone who is very vulnerable to assault, who is not at all on an even footing with her potential assailant, and who is in a confined and semi-private space with her assailant. Stabbing someone who invades your personal space slowly over the course of the trip, culminating in putting their arm around your shoulders. As a man I would start throwing elbows, but stabbing…

The mental gymnastics you are doing are extreme. STABBING someone in response to this is absolutely not ok. There is no consistent social norm reasoning that could make it so.

What if I have a blood clotting disorder? You stab me in my arm and I die. This is ok as an immediate reaction? What if I only accidentally bumped you because the subway jerked?

It’s just crazy.

I agree if you really are in a position of self-defense, reaching for any countermeasures you can makes sense, stabbing with a random object included.

That’s not what this is describing, not remotely.

Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#33

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

jschwartzi wrote: post #26
mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Responding by STABBING someone, as a measure of first defense, is ludicrous, disproportionate, and far more immoral than the harassment leading to it. The harassment is ALSO TERRIBLE. Just not STABBINGLY so.

You should consider it from the point of view of someone who is very vulnerable to assault, who is not at all on an even footing with her potential assailant, and who is in a confined and semi-private space with her assailant. Stabbing someone who invades your personal space slowly over the course of the trip, culminating in putting their arm around your shoulders. As a man I would start throwing elbows, but stabbing…

I can certainly understand the impulse to react with overwhelming force. Even as a man, many potential assailants are larger and stronger than me.

But I'd surely go to prison if I followed through and stabbed some stranger for putting their arm on my shoulders. One of the first things you learn in any kind of self-defense training is that you should not - and legally must not - wield a weapon except to protect yourself from an immediate risk of serious injury.

Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#34

Post by oh_sigh »

epicureanideal wrote: post #2

> "When he lifted his arm and draped it low across her back, Leoti had enough. In a move that would thrill victim of modern-day subway harassment, she reached for her hatpin—nearly a foot long—and plunged it into the meat of the man’s arm. He let out a terrible scream and left the coach at the next stop." Although what the man did is inappropriate, stabbing him seems excessive. She could've first asked him to stop. >…

> She could've first asked him to stop.

Maybe the masher could have just asked her to stop stabbing him instead?

Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#35

Post by [deleted] »

Sniffnoy wrote: post #20
jschwartzi wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming that women and men are on equal footing, physically. When you politely ask someone to stop invading your space, it's backed by your ability to push them out of it. If you're 6'2" and the other guy is 6'2" you're on pretty even footing. But if you're 5'1" and the guy is 6'2" you're not on even footing and shouldn't be expected to act like you are. This is to say nothing of how physically intimidating i…

> You're assuming that women and men are on equal footing, physically. When you politely ask someone to stop invading your space, it's backed by your ability to push them out of it. Disagre; it's generally backed by one's ability to raise a stink and possibly even call the police. That is to say, it relies on the force you can summon from having people (whether bystanders or professionals) recognize that you're in th…

[deleted]

Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#36

Post by dr_dshiv »

> It was true, as social worker Jane Addams lamented, that “never before in civilization have such numbers of young girls been suddenly released from the protection of the home and permitted to walk unattended upon city streets and to work under alien roofs.”

Wow.

Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#37

Post by CarbyAu »

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #12
crooked-v wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's reasonable to at least attempt it Now consider having to do that twice a day, every day or every other day, where in some X% of the cases the man involved may themselves turn violent immediately after being rejected.

I guess since it would be so inconvenient, just stabbing someone right away is ok... ?

Why not the masher NOT be a dick in the first place?

If this was an isolated incident, then what you say is reasonable. When it happens often, the deterrent clearly needs to be greater.

And when you factor in average strength, generally restrictive clothing of the day, social norms, lack of rights.

Bugger it, you may as well take a mile as an inch, you'll be prosecuted the same either way.

Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#38

Post by ramoneguru »

deeblering4 wrote: post #28

Reminds me of a comedian who said “if I have $1000 dollars in my pocket while walking home at night, I have something that another man wants to take from me and it makes me feel scared. This is how it must feel to be a woman all the time, always having something that another man wants to take from you.” I’m paraphrasing, but I thought this was an interesting perspective into a kind of vulnerability that a lot of men…

Dave Chapelle - Bird Revelation.

I used to do shows for drug dealers that wanted to clean their money up. One time I did a real good set, and these motherf--kers called me into the back room. They gave me $25,000 in cash […] I jumped on the subway and started heading towards Brooklyn at one o’clock in the morning. Never been that terrified in my life. I’d never in my life had something that somebody else would want. I thought to myself, “Jesus Christ, if motherf--kers knew much money I had in this backpack, they’d kill me for it.” Then I thought: “Holy s00t, what if I had a pu--y on me all the time? That’s what women are dealing with.” […] If those same drug dealers gave me a pu--y and said, “Put it in your backpack and take it to Brooklyn,” I’d be like, “Ni--a, I can’t accept this.”

Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#39

Post by [deleted] »

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #32
jschwartzi wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should consider it from the point of view of someone who is very vulnerable to assault, who is not at all on an even footing with her potential assailant, and who is in a confined and semi-private space with her assailant. Stabbing someone who invades your personal space slowly over the course of the trip, culminating in putting their arm around your shoulders. As a man I would start throwing elbows, but stabbing…

The mental gymnastics you are doing are extreme. STABBING someone in response to this is absolutely not ok. There is no consistent social norm reasoning that could make it so. What if I have a blood clotting disorder? You stab me in my arm and I die. This is ok as an immediate reaction? What if I only accidentally bumped you because the subway jerked? It’s just crazy. I agree if you really are in a position of self-d…

[deleted]

Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#40

Post by save_ferris »

epicureanideal wrote: post #2

> "When he lifted his arm and draped it low across her back, Leoti had enough. In a move that would thrill victim of modern-day subway harassment, she reached for her hatpin—nearly a foot long—and plunged it into the meat of the man’s arm. He let out a terrible scream and left the coach at the next stop." Although what the man did is inappropriate, stabbing him seems excessive. She could've first asked him to stop. >…

> She could've first asked him to stop.

Sure, she could've. But how many times do you think she'd tried that in other circumstances with success?

If you intentionally violate someone else's personal space, particularly with sexual intentions directed at a member of the opposite sex, you really have no right to assume an equally measured response, especially if you're the physically dominant one.

The moment you decide that it's OK to touch someone inappropriately, you really have no standing to argue over the severity of the response. Let the court decide that one.

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