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Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

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Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#661

Post by DuskStar »

crooked-v wrote: post #634
DuskStar wrote: post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to include individual incidents, you should include the CHAZ/CHOP shooting, and the various "people beat up the car as it drives through" occurrences too. Sure, those cars may have done something to offend/anger/threaten the protesters, but...

> the CHAZ/CHOP shooting The one where a man drove into protestors and shot one of them, or one of the four non-related-to-protest shootings in a neighborhood that had been suddenly abandoned by police and already had a high violent crime rate compared to the rest of the city? > people beat up the car as it drives through That's an inevitable result of somebody trying to push through a crowd that won't move. If you s…

> or one of the four non-related-to-protest shootings in a neighborhood that had been suddenly abandoned by police and already had a high violent crime rate compared to the rest of the city?

I was thinking specifically of the "two black teenagers shot, one killed" incident that made the news everywhere. The fact that there were others is itself a great reason for Uber drivers to not want to drive there. (Protester's fault or something else, it's still dangerous)

> That's an inevitable result of somebody trying to push through a crowd that won't move. If you sit there, nobody moves out of the way, and you hit the gas anyway, people will inevitably try to damage the car to make you stop again, because you could kill somebody doing that.

It's an inevitable consequence on both sides. The driver sitting still who gets spooked by people banging on their windows and floors it is also a predictable outcome. (There's reasons that protests normally have streets closed off, and it's not just for the protesters containment) Personally I'd put both driving up to a crowd AND surrounding a car on foot as "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" - for exactly this reason.

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#662

Post by gamblor956 »

deminature wrote: post #423
Will_Do wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty interesting! In my view, the set your own fare part and penalty removal definitely moves them from the "employee" zone to "self-employed" in the everyday definition. I guess AB5 is much more strict.

AB5 imposes an ABC test on businesses after the precedent set by Dynamex [1]. The specific point of contention the judge has is the B of the ABC - that is whether drivers 'perform work that is outside the usual course of the hiring entity’s business'. Uber argues it is a technology company first, and drives/delivers second, whereas the judge argues the opposite. Convincing arguments can be made for both sides. The mo…

Taken to its furthest extent, AB5 makes Airbnb hosts Airbnb employees, Amazon marketplace sellers Amazon employees, eBay sellers eBay employees, Twitch streamers Twitch employees, etc.

Airbnb: no, because hosts aren't being paid for providing services, they're being paid for providing access to their accommodations. Its a subtle distinction but one that matters legally since it means there isn't a compensation-for-work arrangement. (A host can choose to voluntarily go above and beyond, but that's not required or expected.)

Amazon Marketplace and eBay: No. The Amazon marketplace acts like a real marketplace, so sellers transact with the buyers for AM purchases and Amazon acts as an agent of the seller in that transaction. Sellers determine what they sell on Amazon, how much they charge for the products they sell, and are largely responsible for acquiring sales traffic on their own. Sellers independently acquire and own the inventory they sell on Amazon, and can sell on their own websites or on competitors' websites. Crucially, Amazon isn't paying AM sellers for their labors in selling products. They only receive payment for goods actually sold, meaning again, there is no compensation-for-work arrangement.

Also, for Amazon and eBay: AB5 carves out exceptions for direct sales, in this context defined as any sales not made through a retail store, so direct sales salespersons may continue to be treated as contractors or employees as the business so chooses.

Twitch: Possibly! Twitch and streamers are in the business of streaming live video. Streamers are usually exclusive to a particular streaming service. And generally, except for the biggest streamers, they are unable to set or negotiate their own rates for streaming.

BUT...Twitch doesn't actually pay streamers for streaming; most of them do it for free. When it does pay streamers, it pays them commissions and marketing fees for any ad revenue, sales of digital products, or subscriptions tied to their channels (even if not actually arising from streaming), and marketing services and commission-based arrangements are largely excluded from AB5. And generally, for the bigger streamers, it pays them through personal companies so that AB5 does not apply (since AB5 does not apply to contracts between two legal entities).

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#663

Post by reissbaker »

JSavageOne wrote: post #372
free_rms wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument has been made against every single expansion of worker rights in American history. When the dust settles, business carries on just fine while we get to enjoy things like a 40-hour week with overtime pay if the employer needs more, safety regulations, sick leave, etc.

> overtime pay I'm going to guess most of us here on HN aren't getting any overtime pay

That's because we make over $41/hour (the legal threshold for exemption from overtime pay for salaried employees, where the "hours" are determined by average working hours per week). At that rate, we're not exactly suffering.

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#664

Post by liability »

crooked-v wrote: post #634
DuskStar wrote: post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to include individual incidents, you should include the CHAZ/CHOP shooting, and the various "people beat up the car as it drives through" occurrences too. Sure, those cars may have done something to offend/anger/threaten the protesters, but...

> the CHAZ/CHOP shooting The one where a man drove into protestors and shot one of them, or one of the four non-related-to-protest shootings in a neighborhood that had been suddenly abandoned by police and already had a high violent crime rate compared to the rest of the city? > people beat up the car as it drives through That's an inevitable result of somebody trying to push through a crowd that won't move. If you s…

I think to a hypothetical uber driver, the reason a neighborhood is risky matters less that the fact that the neighborhood is risky. Knowing that it's the cops fault for pulling out of the neighborhood won't pay the repair bill.

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#665

Post by mlrtime »

aslfksdfl wrote: post #497
rubatuga wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is horrible for customers, the worst part is when drivers don't want to pick you up.

I've had Uber drivers pick me up and refuse to go to the part of the city I wanted to go to... complete pain in the ass (and also racist in this specific case). Uber offered me $5 for my trouble each time, which is... very Uber.

How is an area racist?

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#666

Post by gamblor956 »

tfehring wrote: post #613
deminature wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AB5 imposes an ABC test on businesses after the precedent set by Dynamex [1]. The specific point of contention the judge has is the B of the ABC - that is whether drivers 'perform work that is outside the usual course of the hiring entity’s business'. Uber argues it is a technology company first, and drives/delivers second, whereas the judge argues the opposite. Convincing arguments can be made for both sides. The mo…

Whether Uber's business is providing taxi service or just providing a platform for independent drivers to connect with clients, intuitively it seems like the work drivers do is clearly within the usual course of Uber's business. What would Uber's counterargument look like here? Am I just reading it too literally?

No, you've just described Uber/Lyft's problem in a nutshell.

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#667

Post by mlrtime »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #532
rubatuga wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is horrible for customers, the worst part is when drivers don't want to pick you up.

We're just regressing back to black people not being able to get a taxi.

Does Uber show a picture of the rider before they accept or just the location?

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#668

Post by [deleted] »

slipheen wrote: post #641
lhh wrote: post #638

> Becerra said in an interview on CNBC on Tuesday that he was unconcerned about the potential for Uber to leave the state as a result of the order. “Any business model that relies on shortchanging workers in order to make it probably shouldn’t be anywhere, whether California or otherwise,” he said. This type of attitude drives me crazy. These companies have paid billions of dollars to drivers, who voluntarily decided…

That's a really harmful outlook. If company A decides that they are going to pay their workers (say) $3/hr, and illegally bypass the minimum wage, it _DOESN'T MATTER AT ALL_ if they can find workers willing to work for that amount. As a society, we've decided that certain offers aren't acceptable, even if you can find someone desperate enough to take the offer. You shouldn't get to just ignore the law because you're…

[deleted]

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#669

Post by gamblor956 »

SilasX wrote: post #485
Will_Do wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty interesting! In my view, the set your own fare part and penalty removal definitely moves them from the "employee" zone to "self-employed" in the everyday definition. I guess AB5 is much more strict.

Keep in mind, Sidecar went all the way with that -- drivers set their own prices and riders picked from a list of said drivers' offers, weighing their quality/time/cost. And yet I can't seem to find anyone at at the time of operation (i.e. up to EOY 2014) defending Sidecar as being substantively different from Uber with regard to the contractor distinction. Edit: corrected the year

This wasn't a big issue back in 2014, so there wouldn't have been much if any discussion on it for a much smaller service that had almost no market share.

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#670

Post by fosk »

DEADBEEFC0FFEE wrote: post #614
sneak wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the law in most places in the US, too. Uber was founded because it wasn’t really true in practice. You couldn't order a taxi in most places without giving your destination, and frequently they just wouldn't show. Uber was, and remains, a huge improvement over the pre-Uber status quo.

For drivers or riders?

Both. As a driver, no medallion mafia and astronomical prices to deal with. As a rider, no taxi drivers and their horrible service to deal with.

Taxi companies are monopolies allowed by the state, it sucks for the last ones who paid $300,000 for a license to operate just before Uber took off, but technology finds its way.

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