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Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

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Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#551

Post by smsm42 »

newacct583 wrote: post #460
rubatuga wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is horrible for customers, the worst part is when drivers don't want to pick you up.

I think that's absolutely true, and it's one of the reasons that society benefits from the idea of an "employee" relationship, where you can rely on a single corporation, beholden to some kind of public consensus, to enforce a uniform set of rules. A world where everyone is a "contractor" is one where everyone is subject to the tragedy of the commons. (e.g. "You can't get a ride in a poor neighborhood") But part of t…

Taxis have had "You can't get a ride in a poor neighborhood" for ages. If California kills Uber, we're back to the same taxis. So how exactly what is happening now helps solve the "You can't get a ride in a poor neighborhood" problem?

> Those features aren't a good faith attempt to comply with the law

There can be no good attempt to comply with this (completely terrible) law from Uber, since this law was meant to outlaw the whole business model Uber is using. Uber was founded on creating a novel working model, which didn't exist before. California decided to outlaw this model wholesale. The only "good faith attempt" from Uber to deal with it can be to stop operating in California completely. Of course the same goes for Lyft and any other company which uses "freelance employee" model.

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#552

Post by Slartie »

valuearb wrote: post #509
Slartie wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know whether it's the same in the US, but here in Germany, the good old taxis have a special obligation that disallows them to decline a rider based on where he wants to go, as long as that target is within the geographic area for which a particular taxi is licensed. The idea is that taxis are part of public transport and thus should have a certain reliability for customers, regardless of how lucrative a part…

The law in Germany is a fantasy. Drivers still can and claim a break down, bad cell service, etc.

Having some people cheat their way around it does not invalidate the law in the first place and neither does it invalidate its intention. The equivalent in Uber's system is a driver cancelling a ride after accepting it and seeing the destination, maybe claiming his car broke down on the way to the pickup location or whatever. The fact that people can pull that off also does not invalidate Uber's original attempt to make drivers accept riders regardless of their destination.

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#553

Post by sandworm101 »

Will_Do wrote: post #247
pininja wrote: post #166

I work at Uber outside of the rides/eats business and observed many feature releases to adjust the business after AB5. What I saw released: - Enabling drivers to see where a rider is going before accepting the trip [0] [2] - Removed a main penalty for declining rides, “No More 85% Acceptance Rate Requirement For Uber Pro” [2] - Drivers get set their own fare with a multiplier [1] (the article details screenshots and…

That's pretty interesting! In my view, the set your own fare part and penalty removal definitely moves them from the "employee" zone to "self-employed" in the everyday definition. I guess AB5 is much more strict.

>> from the "employee" zone to "self-employed" in the everyday definition.

Courts are not everyday people. For decades they gave lip service to a variety of factors, but inevitably each decision turned on one question: how are taxes handled? If the employer is managing the payment or withholding of taxes, then the worker was an employee. That is changing slowly but remains very much a determining factor.

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#554

Post by WrongThinkerNo5 »

valuearb wrote: post #499
novok wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you could just extend the law to the ride sharing services...

That’s a horrible law. What if it’s a female driver and a sketchy rider? Or worse, her abusive ex?

I thought we were all about equality? Are we now not about equality? I can't keep up.

And if a woman for some sexist reason can refuse a fare, why can't a man refuse a fare if, e.g., he does not like the destination area because it is riddled with crime and he is exponentially more likely to be robbed?

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#555

Post by timavr »

smsm42 wrote: post #526
aslfksdfl wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had Uber drivers pick me up and refuse to go to the part of the city I wanted to go to... complete pain in the ass (and also racist in this specific case). Uber offered me $5 for my trouble each time, which is... very Uber.

If the part of the city is unsafe (as some parts of some major cities are frequently nowdays) to the point the driver risks being assaulted by a mob, dragged out and beaten or shot, and their vehicle destroyed - I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to refuse such ride. No ride worth your life, and unless you're paying 1000x the Uber rates, no ride is worth your car ruined.

I didn’t know Uber is live in Syria.

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#556

Post by julienb_sea »

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #521
TallGuyShort wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if Uber does shut down, how are drivers better off than if they simply chose not to drive for Uber? (or Lyft)

Either companies will fill the gap left by Uber in a way that gives drivers a better version than they had before, or drivers will find other work. This same faulty argument is made often to argue you shouldn’t reduce exploitative child or sex labor, especially in developing countries, but it’s not valid. If Uber employment option is exploitative, you cannot use drivers’ own willingness to accept work via that platfo…

I want to point out, it is possible for government to over-regulate a business model out of financial viability. Employees can and often will push for unreasonable compensation or protections.

You may argue the model can regress to essentially taxis. But realize that taxis work due to artificial supply side restrictions generally using a medallion system and strict limits on numbers. This is fundamentally different from Uber where there is basically no restriction on supply.

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#557

Post by xyzzy_plugh »

gamblor956 wrote: post #342
xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> California, including especially the Bay Area, LA, and San Diego, has public transportation You really had me for a moment until I realized you're joking :) In all seriousness, public transportation in California is the real joke. > It is possible to visit every major city and national park in CA using just public transportation. Sure, and it's possible for me to canoe to Antarctica but it's not a reasonable way fo…

LA's public transportation system has one of the largest geographic footprints in the world. Most of the system is buses rather than fixed rail lines, but the rails run from Downtown to Hollywood, Pasadena, Santa Monica/Culver City, and Long Beach. Prior to COVID, more than 1.3 million people used LA Metro each week. Sure, and it's possible for me to canoe to Antarctica but it's not a reasonable way for anyone to tra…

I took CA public transportation every working day for 5 years. Compared to the rest of the world, it's unreasonable.

Trains and buses are infrequent and have terrible evening/weekend schedules. Sure, during rush hour they can likely be faster than the incredibly overcrowded Californian roads, but otherwise they're crap. They're also not exactly cheap!

It's no surprise why Uber & friends started in the bay area, and why it's so popular there. They had no competition. The transit in these places is like the bare minimum possible. It doesn't even come close to touching world-class transit systems popular all over the world.

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#558

Post by lawnchair_larry »

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #422
vadym909 wrote: post #406

Great- I think this will bring forth the root cause of the problem which is employer tied benefits and employer tied taxes. Right now there are entire business models based on avoiding taxes and benefits. You can have protections like min wage, sick leave, etc and still make it really simple os that evvery individual pays the entire tax (employer and employee payroll taxes) for every dollar they earn. It can be scale…

The nominal burden of who "pays" employment-related taxes or benefits is completely separate from who the actual tax incidence falls on. Would you rather get paid $10k that you owe $1000 of taxes on, or get paid $9k with the $1k of taxes already withheld for you? Either way, the total cost of employing you remains the same for the company, and the take home pay after taxes remains the same.

Not quite, taxes are actually higher if you are self-employed. You have to pay SECA, which effectively includes the portion that your company would have paid otherwise (on top of the amount that they withhold and pay on your behalf).

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#559

Post by tfehring »

WrongThinkerNo5 wrote: post #550
Consultant32452 wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're just regressing back to black people not being able to get a taxi.

Why would "black" taxi drivers not pick up "black" passengers? What is your obsession with color coding people? It's unhealthy and racist.

Drivers are more than twice as likely to cancel rides requested by black passengers than rides requested by white passengers. Any such "obsession" in this discussion is a reflection of observed reality, which is clearly not colorblind. https://news.iu.edu/stories/2020/07/iub/releases/22-racial-l...

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#560

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

WrongThinkerNo5 wrote: post #550
Consultant32452 wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're just regressing back to black people not being able to get a taxi.

Why would "black" taxi drivers not pick up "black" passengers? What is your obsession with color coding people? It's unhealthy and racist.

There's a YouTube video of African immigrant taxi drivers in NYC merrily stating that they won't pick up black Americans because of fare jumping and other issues. One claimed that he could tell who was native born and who wasn't.
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