Live data from Hacker News

Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

cnbc.com

521–530 of 887 posts

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#521
post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Safe and maybe fairer for consumers yes, not so much for the employees. That's why they are getting ruled against with employment law. I can think of quite a few other businesses who would love to toss out all employee protections and benefits. I'm sure it would slightly lower prices and improve efficiency here and there. Is that worth the cost though?...

So if Uber does shut down, how are drivers better off than if they simply chose not to drive for Uber? (or Lyft)

Either companies will fill the gap left by Uber in a way that gives drivers a better version than they had before, or drivers will find other work.

This same faulty argument is made often to argue you shouldn’t reduce exploitative child or sex labor, especially in developing countries, but it’s not valid.

If Uber employment option is exploitative, you cannot use drivers’ own willingness to accept work via that platform as some tacit endorsement that “consenting adults” are each ok with the arrangement, because the exploitative nature creates a duress / desperation aspect that means you can’t differentiate between drivers who are fully aware of the situation they are agreeing to and are happy to do it vs people who were banking on Uber being very different and now find themselves underwater on a car loan and not making enough for health insurance and thus unable to stop driving and look for other work because of a nasty feedback loop or reinforcing problems.

Part of a governments job is to set up rules whereby such a situation cannot be entered into in the first place, given that by doing so you become stuck in it under duress (eg not having health insurance, paid rest periods, etc.).

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is horrible for customers, the worst part is when drivers don't want to pick you up.

Here in Germany proper Taxis have to pick you up (as far as I know, I almost never need one). That's apparently the main reason they offer why they should be protected against services like Uber.

That’s the law in most places in the US, too. Uber was founded because it wasn’t really true in practice. You couldn't order a taxi in most places without giving your destination, and frequently they just wouldn't show.

Uber was, and remains, a huge improvement over the pre-Uber status quo.

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right question is -- why is this forced onto Uber rather than being a question of national healthcare. Because one political party has spent the last 4 decades fighting to prevent "national healthcare," forcing states and businesses to deal with it. Hell, they've spent the last 10 years trying to demolish a law that the overwhelming majority of voters support, including those within their own party.

> national healthcare Let me anecdotally tell you that a large healthcare program has not been good in my experience. Single Payer maybe good though so long as there is choice and competition. Another consideration is that the US has been setup to allow a sort of localism where states can design their own solutions. It might be best for each system to be setup as a state level item.

Does that not ignore the massive disparity in population between states. In California the risk pool would be wide enough that it wouldn't be a problem, in states with < 1 million residents that suddenly becomes very difficult indeed.

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#524
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AB5 has not achieved its intended effect and has had a number of unintended consequences, including collateral damage in industries such as freelance journalism and other contract jobs where "full-time" employment results in the employer going bankrupt. Being familiar with some of these industries, I estimate that AB5 has led to a net loss of jobs, economic activity, and civic engagement in CA, again without achievin…

This is akin to saying the Fair Labor Standards Act was a "bad law" because it ended child labor, which I'm sure also caused a temporary "net loss of jobs, economic activity, and civic engagement"

Not at all. Children are not able to make many legal decisions for themselves. As a society we make this distinction repeatedly from contract law to sexual intercourse. And we’ve decided that whatever economic inefficiencies arise are worth the social gains.

This however is very different. Adults (in the US) are allowed to willfully enter into mostly any sort of agreement with another consenting party. In areas where that’s not the case, there is usually some other greater fundamental social protection that we seek to prioritize (i.e. you cannot legally permit someone to murder you). This law however continues to encroach on the things that free individuals can do. If I want to work for Uber under the terms that apparently many millions of others also want to, then that is my right. The government is effectively seeking to make this illegal...for my own protection.

The issue here is that 99% of HN commentators, politicians, etc have no experience in the gig economy yet project their own ideology onto the situation. Would it be better for workers if Uber provided more benefits? Sure. But Uber loses billions every quarter. So who pays for this? If Uber doesn’t pass on the costs to consumers, it goes bust. If Uber does, there’s a good chance that consumers spend less, or use alternatives. Either way it is likely to harm drivers.

The beauty of a free market is that if Uber was legitimately a bad deal for drivers, they would have never had a business in the first place.

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My last point was that it's good for both riders and drivers. If riders come to expect an unreliable service, then they'll use a different method of transit, which leaves the drivers with less work overall.

> which leaves the drivers with less work overall. ...which is a positive feedback loop that should encourage them to pick up those previously declined routes. Or charge higher rates that better reflect their reluctance for those routes. Isn't that how supply & demand is supposed to work?

But how can you then claim you're better and cheaper than a taxi company?

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is horrible for customers, the worst part is when drivers don't want to pick you up.

I've had Uber drivers pick me up and refuse to go to the part of the city I wanted to go to... complete pain in the ass (and also racist in this specific case). Uber offered me $5 for my trouble each time, which is... very Uber.

If the part of the city is unsafe (as some parts of some major cities are frequently nowdays) to the point the driver risks being assaulted by a mob, dragged out and beaten or shot, and their vehicle destroyed - I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to refuse such ride. No ride worth your life, and unless you're paying 1000x the Uber rates, no ride is worth your car ruined.

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's absolutely true, and it's one of the reasons that society benefits from the idea of an "employee" relationship, where you can rely on a single corporation, beholden to some kind of public consensus, to enforce a uniform set of rules. A world where everyone is a "contractor" is one where everyone is subject to the tragedy of the commons. (e.g. "You can't get a ride in a poor neighborhood") But part of t…

> A world where everyone is a "contractor" is one where everyone is subject to the tragedy of the commons. (e.g. "You can't get a ride in a poor neighborhood") Well no, it's just the opposite. When everyone is a "contractor" you can get a ride in a poor neighborhood, you just have to pay the market rate for getting a ride there. When you try to legislate it, then you get avoidance. The driver gets assigned and then s…

So... most of what you wrote is just standard-issue libertarianism and I know how those arguments go. But this part intrigued me:

> And if you don't like that rides cost more in poor neighborhoods then the government could subsidize it explicitly

OK, how does that work? How do you write such a law such that it can't be exploited? Are there any examples of this kind of regulation you can point to from other markets or other legal regimes or nations or whatever?

I mean, this seems crazy to me, but it's also an opportunity to get you to engage on a genuine issue of social justice (c.f. "it shouldn't cost money to be poor"), so I'm willing to make the effort.

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There obviously needs to be a new class of workers. I've seen the phrase "Dependent Contractor" tossed around here on HN and I think it'd do quite well. If you work for an employer who sets your hours, pay, etc., you'd still be designated as an employee. If you sell your labor to multiple entities, and/or you set your own pay rate, you're an independent contractor. If you do not set your pay rate, you'd be a "depende…

A "dependent contractor" is literally what an employee is, except that in your scenario it would just be an employee without the decades of hard-fought labor protections like bathroom breaks.

I disagree. Every Uber driver, also drives for Lyft and some format of gig on-demand services (like Postmates, Uber eats) during the same hours. If there is a ride from Uber they pick up that ride, if not they switch to Lyft and pick up their rides. I'm yet to see an employer who will be okay with their employee doing it.

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#529
post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the people leaving CA were of the far-right political persuasion, so good riddance to them. Ha! Yeah, CA is known for it’s multitude of far-right groups. And if they are so far right, why are they leaving and voting for left wing policies in other states? Suffice to say CA has some of the highest taxes of any state, yet it also has some of the worst social problems - poverty, homelessness, etc. I’d say it CA…

CA is a huge state, and while the big cities are mostly liberal, the rural parts of the state are very conservative. Nixon and Reagan hail from Southern California, and up until fairly recently, Orange County and the Inland Empire were more conservative than the Southeast. A number of far right groups can trace their origins to the Inland Empire or to CA's far North. As for the homeless issues: multiple states admit…

I'm confused as hell.

I keep hearing that most of the homeless in SF are actually from SF.

As of 2015, approximately 71% of the city's homeless had housing in the city before becoming homeless, while the remaining 29% came from outside of San Francisco. This figure is up from 61% in 2013.[1]

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_San_Franci...

Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California

#530
post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to work at Uber. I'll focus on one particular point: allowing drivers to see where riders are going before they accept the trip. Uber, at least when I worked there, was heavily against this functionality as it allows drivers to discriminate against riders who are going to poor neighborhoods or from cities to suburbs where they may have difficulty in getting another rider. That feature is bad for the overall ec…

> as it allows drivers to discriminate against riders who are going to poor neighborhoods or from cities to suburbs where they may have difficulty in getting another rider. This is exactly what being a contractor is though. Accepting contract work you'd like, and turning down work you don't. Otherwise you are an employee.

Which is why I'm vehemently opposed to classing Uber drivers as contractors.
Post reply on HN