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Veteran submariner on how sonar crews tirelessly hunt enemies they can't see

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Re: Veteran submariner on how sonar crews tirelessly hunt enemies they can't see

#21

Post by finnh »

stormdennis wrote: post #20
jonplackett wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was just going to say exactly this. It’s amazing to see them doing this with such incredibly basic technology. - Having to draw their ship and the submarine and constantly update its movement. - sonar guy is just looking at a screen that blips every now and then. - all communication by morse code - must be horrendously slow in the heat of battle - even communication within the ship is passed between multiple people…

They wargamed live during North Atlantic convoy attacks on the floor of a building in Liverpool. Players received instructions through letterboxes around the room perimeter and each could only see a fraction of the the battle. They could not see the u-boats at all as those were same color as filters they looked through. Information was radioed in from convoy escorts and scenarios were played out. Battles could last a…

Game of Birds and Wolves! Great book

Re: Veteran submariner on how sonar crews tirelessly hunt enemies they can't see

#22

Post by microfen »

adriancooney wrote: post #4

I'm not normally one to promote Hollywood but the film Greyhound (2020) with Tom Hanks does an _excellent_ portrayal of this technology (albeit slightly more primitive) in fighting German U-Boats in WW2. Well worth a watch if this interests you.

I personally haven't seen Greyhound, but if you found this article interesting, the 2019 French film Le Chant du Loup is entirely about sonar crews on modern submarines. It's definitely a fun movie that seems (to an uninitiated) pretty technically accurate.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7458762/

Re: Veteran submariner on how sonar crews tirelessly hunt enemies they can't see

#23

Post by virtue3 »

canada_dry wrote: post #2

> The second step in classification requires analysis. It takes 30 to 45 seconds to get a look at a new detection and discover what kind of engine she’s running, what kind of hydraulic pumps are online, and what screw blade configuration she is using. One can imagine ML making this job somewhat obsolete in the not-too-distant future.

If you ever watched the hunt for red october, they already had computers doing this (doubt it was ML'd tho).

Re: Veteran submariner on how sonar crews tirelessly hunt enemies they can't see

#25

Post by briandear »

adriancooney wrote: post #4

I'm not normally one to promote Hollywood but the film Greyhound (2020) with Tom Hanks does an _excellent_ portrayal of this technology (albeit slightly more primitive) in fighting German U-Boats in WW2. Well worth a watch if this interests you.

Tom Hanks wrote the film as well. He has done a lot of good in terms of WWII history. Greyhound was one of those movies that really brought to life just what combat looks like on the water. To an outsider, naval combat seems rather benign and “far away” compared to Infantry, but the reality is that naval combat is terrifying and up close. It was an incredible film in capturing the horrors of naval warfare. Just seeing how hard it was to be a captain (or even a sonar man,) gives me redoubled respect for those that serve on the seas.

Re: Veteran submariner on how sonar crews tirelessly hunt enemies they can't see

#26

Post by justanotheranon »

adriancooney wrote: post #4

I'm not normally one to promote Hollywood but the film Greyhound (2020) with Tom Hanks does an _excellent_ portrayal of this technology (albeit slightly more primitive) in fighting German U-Boats in WW2. Well worth a watch if this interests you.

the British cracked Enigma in 1941, and from then they were able to completely destroy the 300-400 German u-boats, because they were intercepting and decrypting u-boat radio traffic, so they always knew where the u-boats were going. The only reason the Allies allowed the u-boats to continue winning small victories was to preserve the illusion that Enigma was still secure to prevent the Germans from switching to another cipher system. So when you see depictions of exciting historical battles against u-boats, keep in mind that it was not a level playing field due to the strategic advantage of superior SIGINT by the Allies.

Re: Veteran submariner on how sonar crews tirelessly hunt enemies they can't see

#27

Post by VBprogrammer »

MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #19
robotnikman wrote: post #8

I've heard the sonar ping from a submarine is so powerful that it will kill you if your a diver near the sonar dome.

235db! Apparently also kills wales and dolphins. https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/93222/could-subm...

The only saving grace is that they only use it as a last resort since sending out that kind of noise would let everyone in that hemisphere know exactly where you are.

Re: Veteran submariner on how sonar crews tirelessly hunt enemies they can't see

#28

Post by ggm »

robotnikman wrote: post #8

I've heard the sonar ping from a submarine is so powerful that it will kill you if your a diver near the sonar dome.

Oil and Gas exploration in the sea routinely uses extremely loud sounds, because explosive geosensing. Its screwing up cetacean migration and mating. It travels miles and miles.

Re: Veteran submariner on how sonar crews tirelessly hunt enemies they can't see

#29

Post by gregoriol »

microfen wrote: post #22
adriancooney wrote: post #4

I'm not normally one to promote Hollywood but the film Greyhound (2020) with Tom Hanks does an _excellent_ portrayal of this technology (albeit slightly more primitive) in fighting German U-Boats in WW2. Well worth a watch if this interests you.

I personally haven't seen Greyhound, but if you found this article interesting, the 2019 French film Le Chant du Loup is entirely about sonar crews on modern submarines. It's definitely a fun movie that seems (to an uninitiated) pretty technically accurate. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7458762/

That movie is indeed very good to watch, intense, and portraying what is described in the article: war on a submarine through the eyes (or ears) of a sonar man.

Re: Veteran submariner on how sonar crews tirelessly hunt enemies they can't see

#30

Post by wcarey »

jonplackett wrote: post #7
adriancooney wrote: post #4

I'm not normally one to promote Hollywood but the film Greyhound (2020) with Tom Hanks does an _excellent_ portrayal of this technology (albeit slightly more primitive) in fighting German U-Boats in WW2. Well worth a watch if this interests you.

I was just going to say exactly this. It’s amazing to see them doing this with such incredibly basic technology. - Having to draw their ship and the submarine and constantly update its movement. - sonar guy is just looking at a screen that blips every now and then. - all communication by morse code - must be horrendously slow in the heat of battle - even communication within the ship is passed between multiple people…

The book by C.S. Forester that the movie is based on is even more realistic, though the movie is pretty good.

To really dig into it, Samuel Eliot Morison's magisterial History of Naval Operations in World War II does a good job talking through the development of both the technology and organization of naval operations.

Not all communication was by morse code. We did use ship to ship voice radio, but it was a tradeoff. RDF allowed the enemy to triangular the position of the broadcasting ship, and (often) the enemy could overhear messages and infer some tactical details.

Sensor systems changed wildly throughout the war. Sonar improved markedly, and radar went from non-existent to able to identify altitude and distance to individual planes. The weight of the additional sensor systems and controls systems made some ships unstable, so we removed weapon systems from them.

Being a captain (or, heaven forbid) and admiral, was very demanding. Sleep was hard to come by, and the fog of war was intense. We had meaningful problems with friendly fire in night engagements even with radar and radio communications.

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