Can we talk about the upside of being a contractor? It takes more effort to keep tabs of what you do but there are many benefits to being a single person entity. I believe lack of education about being an LLC or incorporated entrepreneur or maybe the high bar of understanding its benefits contributed to the opinion that being W2 for Uber is much better.
Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California
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Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California
#162Earlier quoted context omitted.
comparing uber and etsy is dishonest at best. The only freedom an uber contractor has is "when to work". All the pricing and trips are decided by uber, and they can't even reject properly. They are in fact an employees in everything but legal status. In etsy, you choose your prices, what you sell, and even to whom you sell to, it's definitely a market place.
Would a system that allows the drivers to "set their own pay" and in which Uber dispatches drivers with the lowest rates follow the law better? This would clearly be a race to the bottom (the pay would probably be even lower than what Uber drivers get today). Is that a preferable outcome? I also object to this characterization of consent. > The only freedom an uber contractor has is "when to work". How is this not co…
The difference is that contractors can negotiate those other contracts to change the rate of pay. An Uber driver cannot negotiate how much they get paid by Uber. (Part A of the ABC test.)
In some cases with written contracts, the pay is specified as a non-negotiable condition from the paying party, and the "only freedom" the contractor has is to take it or leave it. Is that a violation?
No, because one of the other factors in being a contractor was having multiple (potential) contracting counterparties (aka clients). An Uber driver contracts with just Uber, not the riders. In contrast, a contractor would generally have more than one client if they were in the business of providing that type of service as a contractor. (Part C of the ABC test. Note that Part C requires a contractor to engage in the legal formalities of creating their own business, so it's not just enough to work for both Uber and Lyft.)
But note that for Uber and Lyft, what matters is not that they failed part A and C of the ABC test, since those are relatively trivial to structure around.
Uber and Lyft fail part B of the ABC test, which is that a worker cannot be engaged in a job that is the usual course of the employer's business. Uber and Lyft call themselves transportation companies, ergo, any worker that is providing a transportation service is automatically an employee under the ABC test. Indeed, drivers are the only workers at Uber/Lyft that would be treated as automatic employees; the programmers could be employees or contractors.
Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California
#163Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California
#164So basically, Lyft wins in CA? Ubers out and Lyft will comply and can finally raise the prices on rides however they want. Am I missing something?
Lyft is also a target of this injunction. It isn't clear yet that Lyft will begin complying with AB5.
Margins are already negative. How can they possibly afford to?
Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California
#165Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California
#166I work at Uber outside of the rides/eats business and observed many feature releases to adjust the business after AB5.
What I saw released:
- Enabling drivers to see where a rider is going before accepting the trip [0] [2]
- Removed a main penalty for declining rides, “No More 85% Acceptance Rate Requirement For Uber Pro” [2]
- Drivers get set their own fare with a multiplier [1] (the article details screenshots and backend balance rules)
Now every dollar coming in seems to very clearly go from rider to driver.
- removed upfront pricing in California and once again charging riders the precise trip amount based on time and distance. [0] [2]
- A new driver incentive was released too tied to purchasing the service fee at a lower rate [3] (since every dollar is supposed to flow clearly from the price breakdown)
- “Favorite Driver Feature”, so even if they set higher fares, riders will be able to request one of their favorite drivers if they’re nearby [2]
These seemed primarily to try to address the flexibility evaluated by “Prong A” of AB5, however some public experts were concerned it wouldn’t address “Prong B”, which requires the “drivers’ work is outside ‘the usual course of the company’s business,’” [0]. This might have been where the judge focused their ruling.
Other companies didn’t make changes for drivers, “Lyft [also afaik Postmates, and DoorDash] continues to operate as if it’s business as usual.” [0]
[0] https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2020-02-03...
[1] https://therideshareguy.com/set-your-own-rates-uber-feature/
[2] https://therideshareguy.com/uber-rolling-out-new-driver-feat...
Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California
#167Earlier quoted context omitted.
comparing uber and etsy is dishonest at best. The only freedom an uber contractor has is "when to work". All the pricing and trips are decided by uber, and they can't even reject properly. They are in fact an employees in everything but legal status. In etsy, you choose your prices, what you sell, and even to whom you sell to, it's definitely a market place.
True, but to be fair, that is a huge freedom, and one many people want or need. Yes, driving Uber is a shit job, but for many people it is far better or more compatible with their lives than waiting tables or working retail, which are the realistic alternatives for most Uber drivers.
People waiting tables or working retail make more than Uber drivers on an hourly basis...
Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California
#168i had this question on the other thread,
If uber drivers are employees can they still 'decline' a ride?
Employees aren't free to decline work that their boss assigns them.
Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California
#169Why would they bank on voters? Do they really think people are going to vote against driver protections in california?
How about consumer protections?
"Driver protections" are the reason we have Uber and Lyft to begin with. Cab companies were very well regulated and paid. But the service sucked. I was hung out to dry in areas of San Francisco in 2009 - where cabs would simply not come because it was inconvenient for them.
Re: Uber CEO says its service will probably shut down temporarily in California
#170Maybe I'm cynical but "temporarily shut down" sounds like a formula to: - Inconvenience a certain class of urbanites who have grown accustomed to being driven around in the hopes that they - Complain loudly to their representatives and other governmental officials in the hope that - The state will reverse this judgement
Imagine shutting down food delivery in a pandemic is going to be a popular decision. I imagine not.
Uber Eats has a number of competitors for food delivery services in CA.
And since UberEats's drivers already tend to work for their competitors as well, the effect of Uber pulling out of the market probably wouldn't even be noticeable.