Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products • Hacker News Board

Re: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

#861

Post by _underfl0w_ » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 7:01 AM UTC

wackget wrote: post #765

dblohm7 wrote: post #258

[I am a Mozilla employee, and yes, I do recognize how my position influences my perspective.] One thing that always frustrates me a bit whenever Mozilla comes up on HN or elsewhere is that we are always held to impossibly high standards. Yes, as a non-profit, we should be held to higher standards, but not impossible standards. OTOH, sometimes it just seems unreasonable and absurd. Stuff like, to paraphrase, "Look at…

If you're on the Firefox team (or know anyone who is) please encourage them to make Firefox customisable again. It gets worse with every updated. More options are stripped back in favour of "simplicity". Firefox made a name for itself by giving users control to make it their own browser; saying it has become a "clone of Chrome" is clichéd now, but that doesn't change the fact that it's true. Firefox needs to stop cha…

I believe it's based on Chrome/Chromium to some degree (pretty sure it uses Blink) so I understand if it isn't something you're interested in given the topic of this thread, but the Vivaldi browser is insanely customizable.

Re: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

#862

Post by fsflover » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 7:02 AM UTC

zobzu wrote: post #593

yoran wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% agree with that. Maybe Mozilla's greatest skill really is in PR and that it is a rotten organization inside (which so many comments on HN seem to imply), but I don't buy that. When you try to do good, you always put yourself in a vulnerable position. As soon as you make a single mistake, people love to point the finger and criticize for being a hypocrite and not living up to your standards. When an evil company…

Nah Mozilla's PR is mainly due to historical stuff, not to new marketing (post FxOS era more or less) The org inside is.. like many old orgs, half rotten, half fine. There's a lot of good engineering and even good leaders, thought the ones that are genuine tend to be pushed aside over time for ... more evil reasons, friendship, money, wrong color, you name it. You like you said when you try to do good you put yoursel…

> Pretty much none of your donations go to the web browser itself.

Any proof for that? Mozilla Corp is owned by Mozilla Foundation.

Re: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

#863

Post by blub » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 7:04 AM UTC

renewiltord wrote: post #339

dblohm7 wrote: post #258

[I am a Mozilla employee, and yes, I do recognize how my position influences my perspective.] One thing that always frustrates me a bit whenever Mozilla comes up on HN or elsewhere is that we are always held to impossibly high standards. Yes, as a non-profit, we should be held to higher standards, but not impossible standards. OTOH, sometimes it just seems unreasonable and absurd. Stuff like, to paraphrase, "Look at…

Haha, this is what it looks like to cater to the privacy/security crowd. They have a picture of ideological purity. They don't actually use your product. Essentially if these were customers you'd want to fire them. People in this business always discover this stuff and then they're always like "Why do they hate me?". The answer is "they never wanted to love you. They want to watch you fall". Like DDG with their favic…

This announcement has nothing to do with privacy and security and suggesting that it does is a red herring.

People generally want privacy and security, as numerous polls show, but:

a) it's very hard to figure out if something is private/secure

b) the company can change the deal at any point

c) the market has stacked the deck against privacy and security.

Until there are laws with teeth which will punish transgressors, not much will change.

Re: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

#864

Post by _underfl0w_ » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 7:04 AM UTC

outworlder wrote: post #720

DoctorNick wrote: post #632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't hold Mozilla to higher standards. I just expect Mozilla to make a decent browser. Firefox is not a decent browser anymore compared to its competition. Its performance and security is lagging severely behind Chrome, and it doesn't really respect privacy any more than Chrome does in its default configuration. Pretty much the only two advantages it has right now are containers, and the fact that it's not Chrome.…

> Its performance and security is lagging severely behind Chrome Citation needed. I've been using for a while and it is leaps and bounds better than what it was. I haven't fired up Chrome in months now.

Can confirm. I made the switch to Chrome in its early days when Firefox couldn't touch its performance, but switched back to Firefox around a year or so ago since Chrome could no longer touch Firefox's performance. It really has come a long way since the days most people seem to be remembering.

Re: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

#865

Post by _underfl0w_ » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 7:09 AM UTC

blihp wrote: post #779

dblohm7 wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> while originally presented as the for-profit serving the non-profit, the reality appears to be the other way around. Would you care to elaborate?

IIRC, the stated purpose of the formation of the foundation and corporation was to primarily fund the development of the/a browser product. Over the last 10 years, the corporation has taken in several billion dollars which should have been enough to fund a sizeable fraction of annual cash needs in perpetuity (i.e. don't spend it as you get it, invest it as various endowments/trusts do so that you have an annual reven…

When the parent command asked/goaded for elaboration I was worried you wouldn't notice or respond, but you did and clarified in depth, saying precisely what a lot of us are thinking. Thank you for doing so.

Re: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

#866

Post by raxxorrax » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 7:11 AM UTC

vages wrote: post #627

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I certainly don't think the corporate doublespeak is reason to switch to Chrome, but I do think the corporate doublespeak in this announcement is just awful. When you're doing a layoff, just announce the layoff, show compassion to the affected employees, and if you want to announce other changes, do it in a separate announcement. Putting stuff about the fight against systemic racism in the opening paragraph of a layo…

I have to respectfully disagree. It is common for leaders to re-state their entity's reason for being as they bring bad news. See Churchill's speeches during the battle of France, for instance. I think this opening was well-written and clearly communicated Mozilla's purpose. You can blame it for being populist, but don't hate the player, hate the game.

I agree that the criticism is disproportionate, especially after all Mozilla has done for the net. I am disappointed what issues take up a priority today. I primarily think of focusing on community as policing speech in repositories and terminology, brave new world style. I don't think the old leadership failed, I think the new one is just very quick with results. Mozilla was beloved because they had a different image. I am in a position where I dislike their advocacy, because it just doesn't resonate with me for improving anything, on the contrary. I don't judge them for trying to monetize some of their services, but I also see it as a result of expanding aimlessly.

And they want to offer me leadership? For what? Seriously considering if Mozilla still has a place on the donation list.

This blog post is pretty bad. Doesn't mean I just drop my support, but I don't see how you cannot be disappointed here or who feels like this is a road to improvement.

Re: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

#867

Post by laughinghan » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 7:12 AM UTC

Chirael wrote: post #324

jacquesm wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it is a losing strategy because this is a rearguard action. There are only losing strategies, nothing will turn Mozilla around to be some kind of powerhouse besides what it already is. And that's fine . It doesn't need to be the next singing, dancing platform with bells and whistles. It's a tool. It should do one thing and do that one thing well. FireFox is not a failing product, it is the only product they have…

I loved Firefox Send and really hope they can find a way to address the malware problem [1]. It was the only large file sharing service I fully trusted both because of the encrypted zero-knowledge aspect of the system and the organization behind it; I used it several times a month personally and told others about it. To me it was a "win" under the Mozilla/FF brand. [1] https://www.zdnet.com/article/mozilla-suspends-f…

Since this is so useful, and has operational costs because they have to run a server, could they solve two problems in one go by just charging money for it? Like $10/year or something tiny. Bet the malware issue would go way down.

Re: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

#868

Post by _underfl0w_ » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 7:13 AM UTC

stonogo wrote: post #715

dblohm7 wrote: post #258

[I am a Mozilla employee, and yes, I do recognize how my position influences my perspective.] One thing that always frustrates me a bit whenever Mozilla comes up on HN or elsewhere is that we are always held to impossibly high standards. Yes, as a non-profit, we should be held to higher standards, but not impossible standards. OTOH, sometimes it just seems unreasonable and absurd. Stuff like, to paraphrase, "Look at…

It's not withering away because of minor mistakes; it's withering away because of major mistakes. Those mistakes are largely in corporate governance -- this is the reason so many are furious about the $2.5MM salary for a CEO at the helm of a market-share death spiral. Every single product line except Firefox is an also-ran from a revenue standpoint. How does Baker respond? Fire the Servo team, and tell an interviewer…

Particularly excellent reference on the salary tweet. Yikes. You've hit several nails directly on the head, so to speak.

Re: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

#869

Post by fsflover » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 7:16 AM UTC

1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #665

fsflover wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what are your suggestions? Let Mozilla die and enjoy Google monopoly in the web? No, thanks. I prefer a non-profit organization which " failed their users and the ecosystem by not standing up to industry pressure ". By the way, consider donating to Mozilla if you want them to (be able to) listen to you.

We have heard this argument many times from Mozilla advocates on HN. I don't buy it. To me, this sounds like an argument for the status quo. It may be a rational descriotion of the reasoning what Mozilla is continuing to pursue, but essentially it argues, "No one can do better. Therefore, don't change anything". Well, if the comments in this thread (and many others) are any indication, there are some users who want c…

> Google already has a "monopoly in the web", and they in fact control Mozilla by being its essential source of revenue.

This is exactly why we need to use the "non-profit" part of the deal. Donations is the future. Please donate and your voice in the future of Mozilla will be heard (and not the voice of Google).

> My suggestion is to release a different sort of browser, smaller. In fact, release multiple browsers, each with a different focus. These specialised browsers could use pieces of Firefox code but would be small enough any user could compile

This is ridiculous. Firefox is not just for programmers who routinely compile things. It is for everyone. I am not compiling anything. You suggestion will make Chrome 99.9% monopoly.

Re: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses on commercial products

#870

Post by akerro » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 7:24 AM UTC

strken wrote: post #847

dblohm7 wrote: post #258

[I am a Mozilla employee, and yes, I do recognize how my position influences my perspective.] One thing that always frustrates me a bit whenever Mozilla comes up on HN or elsewhere is that we are always held to impossibly high standards. Yes, as a non-profit, we should be held to higher standards, but not impossible standards. OTOH, sometimes it just seems unreasonable and absurd. Stuff like, to paraphrase, "Look at…

My standards for Mozilla are: 1) Make a good browser. Get market share. Use it to push the envelope for what can be done on the web. 2) Respect user privacy. 3) Don't spam me with push notifications, in-browser advertising, or any other marketing communications unless it helps goals 1 or 2. 4) Don't spend most of your money on projects that aren't your browser. Mozilla keeps getting into partnerships that send data t…

>4) Don't spend most of your money on projects that aren't your browser.

Web browsing is much more than a browser now, it's outside of browser tracking, like Facebook and Google pinging your ip address. It's hiding your email from spammers and email traders. Sharing links outside of browser and being able to read them offline. Controlling browser habits with voice.

Mozilla offers paid service that do such things. It all works towards your second goal - respecting your privacy.