Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#691

Post by huntertwo » Tue, Aug 11, 2020, 12:54 PM UTC

WC3w6pXxgGd wrote: post #564

neuroanalysis wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Profitability should have no bearing on whether drivers are classified as employees or contractors. If these companies can’t turn a profit while complying with the law then they don’t have a viable business model. That is entirely their problem. Furthermore, the assumptions you make regarding future hiring practices are unfounded. Nothing stipulates that resumes or interviews, let alone in person, would be required t…

> If these companies can’t turn a profit while complying with the law then they don’t have a viable business model Are you seriously telling me that if people don't interact freely in the way bureaucrats want them to interact, then those people should, by law, not be allowed to interact? Big Brother knows best, huh.

What is a minimum wage?

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#692

Post by eie73hrhdje » Tue, Aug 11, 2020, 12:56 PM UTC

newsclues wrote: post #643

eie73hrhdje wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>... we should treat each other with more dignity... You mean like respecting their decision to engage in gig work despite every other available option? That kind of dignity? The whole issue is pretty rich coming from California. If people are struggling the answer is never that the cost of living is too high due to rediculous zoning and environmental regulations, clearly it's the greedy companies that are the proble…

Do people do gig work out of choice or necessity? Just because people choose or are forced to do a job doesn’t mean they do not deserve respect

I had a long rambling reply to this that in retrospect I think missed the forest for the trees. Put simply, most jobs are worked out of necessity because we don't live in a post scarcity society. It's a very privileged position to have a real choice between interesting jobs that aren't just two terrible competing options.

Removing labor options by force weakens the position of low skill workers because it limits how many interests are competing for their attention (labor demand). There is nothing inherently disrespectful about independent contractor work, it's simply another option in a wider pool of choices. What is disrespectful is suggesting that these people are just to dim to see that they're being exploited rather than acknowledging that perhaps the reason they don't care about the benefits of regular work is because a job that fits into their current life situation is more valuable than the other options they looked at.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#693

Post by LatteLazy » Tue, Aug 11, 2020, 1:07 PM UTC

criddell wrote: post #2

> Uber and Lyft say drivers prefer the flexibility of working as freelancers What would prevent Uber and Lyft from continuing to let employee drivers set their own hours?

The same reason it doesn't work in other industries: if you pay everyone the same wage and let them pick, everyone will work the quite shifts. This is doubly true for Uber: why would I work a shift when I have to actually drive places and burn gas when I could insist on doing shifts I knew no one would use the service?

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#694

Post by maxehmookau » Tue, Aug 11, 2020, 1:07 PM UTC

murgindrag wrote: post #634

jasode wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>All gig workers are slaves and we should treat each other with more dignity and upgrade them to employees. It's our bloody duty as a decent human being. Lyft/Uber can upgrade them to employees but the arithmetic of bottom-up economics means Uber has to raise prices to cover full employment benefits. The raised fares conflict with what passengers are willing to pay . E.g. even though yellow medallion taxis often cost…

There is no such thing as "society is not willing to pay the higher prices for drivers to be treated as employees." Society isn't a brain which thinks. There is emergent behavior. * I am glad to be forced to pay more to have Uber/Lyft drivers treated well. I think we should have worker's right protections. * I am unwilling to pay more myself as a one-off (e.g. through tipping). It's a Prisoner's Dilemma. That's what…

> There is no such thing as "society is not willing to pay the higher prices for drivers to be treated as employees." Society isn't a brain which thinks. There is emergent behavior.

I don't see this argument made enough, especially on HN.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#695

Post by maxehmookau » Tue, Aug 11, 2020, 1:14 PM UTC

jdhn wrote: post #689

dustinmoris wrote: post #577

Lots of HN comments are here like "I know people who prefer to be contractors", "My sister's neighbours little brother actually doesn't want to be treated with respect by Uber", blah This is utter nonsense. Being a contractor means being self employed. You don't get paid leave or sick pay. It's a risk taking and doesn't make any sense in the gig economy where the wages are close to minimum rates. If you are truly sel…

>All gig workers are slaves If gig workers are slaves, then we must conclude that slavery isn't that bad. Nobody is forcing people to sign up to drive for these companies, and if they don't like it, then they can choose to drop out by tapping on their screen to indicate that they're out of service.

> Nobody is forcing people to sign up to drive for these companies

No single person, sure. But the inceasing lack of secure, reliable income sources remove most other choices.

"gig" work should not be the norm. It should (and always used to) be the job that the teenager does (delivering newspapers, etc) or someone does for a bit of extra cash.

But they're becoming pervasive, normalized and this should be rejected.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#696

Post by treeman79 » Tue, Aug 11, 2020, 1:28 PM UTC

murgindrag wrote: post #634

jasode wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>All gig workers are slaves and we should treat each other with more dignity and upgrade them to employees. It's our bloody duty as a decent human being. Lyft/Uber can upgrade them to employees but the arithmetic of bottom-up economics means Uber has to raise prices to cover full employment benefits. The raised fares conflict with what passengers are willing to pay . E.g. even though yellow medallion taxis often cost…

There is no such thing as "society is not willing to pay the higher prices for drivers to be treated as employees." Society isn't a brain which thinks. There is emergent behavior. * I am glad to be forced to pay more to have Uber/Lyft drivers treated well. I think we should have worker's right protections. * I am unwilling to pay more myself as a one-off (e.g. through tipping). It's a Prisoner's Dilemma. That's what…

I did Uber eats for a few months after I got injured.

Between that and renting out a room on airbnb, It kept us from going homeless while I recovered enough to work again.

Turns out Disability insurance is nearly worthless for any complicated injuries.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#697

Post by dominotw » Tue, Aug 11, 2020, 1:29 PM UTC

dustinmoris wrote: post #577

Lots of HN comments are here like "I know people who prefer to be contractors", "My sister's neighbours little brother actually doesn't want to be treated with respect by Uber", blah This is utter nonsense. Being a contractor means being self employed. You don't get paid leave or sick pay. It's a risk taking and doesn't make any sense in the gig economy where the wages are close to minimum rates. If you are truly sel…

> Then they have merely the chance to accept/decline it.

But isn't the definition of contractor vs employee.

Can they still reject if they are converted to an employee, because then it would be weird.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#698

Post by mathattack » Tue, Aug 11, 2020, 1:33 PM UTC

dustinmoris wrote: post #577

Lots of HN comments are here like "I know people who prefer to be contractors", "My sister's neighbours little brother actually doesn't want to be treated with respect by Uber", blah This is utter nonsense. Being a contractor means being self employed. You don't get paid leave or sick pay. It's a risk taking and doesn't make any sense in the gig economy where the wages are close to minimum rates. If you are truly sel…

Should people have the ability to choose to be contractors?

For example, “Accept wage X as an employee, work these set hours, and you have to bring in some multiple of X to justify your employment. Or stay a contractor, work when you want, get the benefit of surge pricing and keep a fixed % of your revenue”

As a consumer of Uber and Lyft, what differentiates them from Taxis is the ability for them to react to changes in demand. (Try finding a taxi in the rain) I can’t see them pulling this off without some portion of the workforce being contingent.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#699

Post by driverdan » Tue, Aug 11, 2020, 1:34 PM UTC

dustinmoris wrote: post #577

Lots of HN comments are here like "I know people who prefer to be contractors", "My sister's neighbours little brother actually doesn't want to be treated with respect by Uber", blah This is utter nonsense. Being a contractor means being self employed. You don't get paid leave or sick pay. It's a risk taking and doesn't make any sense in the gig economy where the wages are close to minimum rates. If you are truly sel…

> All gig workers are slaves

This is repulsive. You denigrate all people who have suffered in actual slavery. Follow your "bloody duty as a decent human being" and learn what slavery is actually like.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#700

Post by pinkfoot » Tue, Aug 11, 2020, 1:37 PM UTC

driverdan wrote: post #699

dustinmoris wrote: post #577

Lots of HN comments are here like "I know people who prefer to be contractors", "My sister's neighbours little brother actually doesn't want to be treated with respect by Uber", blah This is utter nonsense. Being a contractor means being self employed. You don't get paid leave or sick pay. It's a risk taking and doesn't make any sense in the gig economy where the wages are close to minimum rates. If you are truly sel…

> All gig workers are slaves This is repulsive. You denigrate all people who have suffered in actual slavery. Follow your "bloody duty as a decent human being" and learn what slavery is actually like.

And you are unable to recognise a metaphor.