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Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

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Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#661

Post by ghaff »

clusterfish wrote: post #633
mercer wrote: post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe what this really comes down to is that society is not willing to pay the higher prices for drivers to be treated as employees. Same situation as not willing to paying higher prices at hair salons so hair stylists are full employees (instead of being contractors) with healthcare. It does seem like constantly blaming Uber for mis-categorizing employees conveniently shifts the blame from the society/customer…

Businesses want more profit. Consumers want to pay less. Workers want to earn more. Pretty much always. This doesn't always result in an optimal outcome. Market power, externalities, information asymmetry, etc. This is why we have regulations. Forcing the society and Uber to pay for drivers to be treated as employees seems like a very reasonable outcome. If they don't like it they can hire less drivers, but the ones…

Which is a perfectly reasonable position whether or not someone agrees in this particular case. We have lots of laws that, for some combination of good and bad reasons, keep services from being as cheap as they might otherwise be.

I have trouble being upset that fewer people will want to afford higher Uber prices. People managed before Uber and it's mostly a luxury good anyway. To be honest, when Uber's management changed, the sensible thing--VC money notwithstanding--would have been to start pricing the service at what it cost.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#662

Post by microcolonel »

eie73hrhdje wrote: post #654
microcolonel wrote: post #646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see the ‘respect’ and ‘dignity’ in being prohibited from taking work because it is aesthetically displeasing to the 1%.

I feel like you're disagreeing with me but I'm unclear what we are disagreeing on.

You are mistaken, I'm not even replying to you.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#663

Post by michaniskin »

kikokikokiko wrote: post #623
jquery wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slaves, mmm.... yes I remember the first day that jackbooted thugs from Uber forced me to drive for the company. Every day that I felt like driving instead of doing literally anything else, these Uber slavemasters would show up with their chains and their whips. The horror... I hope Uber goes out of business so I can finally go back to my old life...

As a non US citizen that does not live in America and just looks from the outside, I'm always amazed at the rapid transformation going on in the last decade. If hackernews is a sample of the general american population, you guys are becoming communist. And it won't end well.

Don’t worry, the American spirit of liberty and free market capitalism is alive and well. It’s just that most Americans are busy getting things done instead of planning everyone’s lives for them on twitter or HN.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#664

Post by ghaff »

kwanbix wrote: post #637
luckylion wrote: post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Blaming the customers for not keeping track of everything and going for the cheapest option is like blaming climate change on the consumer. But that's not quite it, I believe. The point isn't that customers choose the cheaper of two options, it's that non-users don't become users of a service until there's a super cheap option. Taxis/Yellow cabs were a thing before Uber, but they're more expensive than what lots of…

I don´t know how is it in all of the world, but in many countries/cities, the problem with Taxi drivers is that there is no control, they treat you like shit, there is no one else to complain, they take you to the longest route, many have their "clocks" (that is what we call the machine they use to charge you the fare) fixed so that they charge more, and there are illegal taxis that steal from you (as in real robbery…

It sounds like you'd be happy with a premium service (like Uber originally was). You pay more than a taxi but you get all the other benefits you list. Problem solved.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#665

Post by JaceLightning »

dustinmoris wrote: post #577

Lots of HN comments are here like "I know people who prefer to be contractors", "My sister's neighbours little brother actually doesn't want to be treated with respect by Uber", blah This is utter nonsense. Being a contractor means being self employed. You don't get paid leave or sick pay. It's a risk taking and doesn't make any sense in the gig economy where the wages are close to minimum rates. If you are truly sel…

I vehemently disagree.

I used to tutor for Chegg tutors on the side--outside my main job. They paid ~$20/hr and for 5-10 hours I week I could bring in some extra money for food and rent.

They shut it down in my state because they reclassified them as employees, and Chegg was not going to do all that leg work to bring people on as part-time employees.

I didn't need benefits like sick days or unpaid leave since it was just a gig I did online for extra money. I didn't need health insurance, since my main job provided that. I didn't need job security that was provided by the inability to fire people.

I was just trying to make some extra money online.

And now I can't because Big Government decided I can't.

You know who it really hurts? The kids I was tutoring. Now there is a huge tutor shortage and kids that need help aren't getting it. There was ALREADY a tutor shortage before they cut off several states from being tutors.

If it's the law, then it's a stupid law and needs to be changed.

It's telling that Uber/Lyft drivers weren't the ones asking for this. They were fine the way they are. No Uber/Lyft driver was saying "Wouldn't it be nice if we were REAL employees??".

It's the bloody taxi companies trying to get back at Uber because taxi drivers ARE real jobs that require real benefits, and they can't compete with a better business model.

Fuck California.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#666

Post by arendtio »

rdgthree wrote: post #7

It strikes me that these articles are always biased in the direction of the benefits of being an employee. I have several friends that actively choose to be contractors because they prefer the (legally protected) flexibility to decide their own hours, among other things. It's a personal decision, and there are upsides and downsides in both directions. Sure - some (non-insignificant) portion of Uber and Lyft drivers w…

So why don't they offer both options then?

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#667

Post by eie73hrhdje »

microcolonel wrote: post #662
eie73hrhdje wrote: post #654

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like you're disagreeing with me but I'm unclear what we are disagreeing on.

You are mistaken, I'm not even replying to you.

I was indeed mistaken, I see that now.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#668

Post by ghaff »

scarface74 wrote: post #658
dustinmoris wrote: post #577

Lots of HN comments are here like "I know people who prefer to be contractors", "My sister's neighbours little brother actually doesn't want to be treated with respect by Uber", blah This is utter nonsense. Being a contractor means being self employed. You don't get paid leave or sick pay. It's a risk taking and doesn't make any sense in the gig economy where the wages are close to minimum rates. If you are truly sel…

Well. There have been stories of independent truck drivers that are being forced to leave California because they can’t be independent any more. Jason Snell, a long time editor of Macworld, was let go years ago and decided to do podcasting and blogging full time, but he still wanted to do freelance writing. The new laws passed in California made it more difficult. The only reason the gig economy is bad is because we…

Yes, a number of freelance writers I know, many of whom have been happily doing it for decades, were very unhappy about the California law.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#669

Post by ghaff »

mysterEFrank wrote: post #132
specialist wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uber drivers invest $20k for opportunity to earn $15/hr. How much do your contracting friends invest? What's their compensation?

That's not fair. It's like claiming that airbnb hosts spend 500k to earn 100 dollars a night. Most people own cars anyways, this is an opportunity for them to make money off of that investment.

Most of the cost of a car is in mileage based depreciation--especially in areas where rust from salt in the winter isn't a problem.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#670

Post by karlakush »

dustinmoris wrote: post #577

Lots of HN comments are here like "I know people who prefer to be contractors", "My sister's neighbours little brother actually doesn't want to be treated with respect by Uber", blah This is utter nonsense. Being a contractor means being self employed. You don't get paid leave or sick pay. It's a risk taking and doesn't make any sense in the gig economy where the wages are close to minimum rates. If you are truly sel…

> All gig workers are slaves

This is a pretty disgusting thing to say. You realize slaves were forced to work for no pay, could not change companies, could not even leave company property, and were physically beaten when they refused to work? This does not describe Uber drivers at all.

If you really think turning Uber drivers into minimum wage employees instead of contractors is going to improve their lives at all, you're in for a rude awakening.

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