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TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

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Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#191

Post by ausbah »

itsoktocry wrote: post #187
panpanna wrote: post #143

Not sure what to feel about this one. I don't like this company, which has already started censoring foreign nationals based on what CCP allows. At the same time, how can a single person decide the fate of a company in a different country? What will be next? Furthermore, what if EU decides Instagram is somehow a threat and must be shut down?

> At the same time, how can a single person decide the fate of a company in a different country? How is TikTok's fate being decided by a US ban? The CCP does this all the time, it isn't uncommon to ban foreign software.

because America isn't China?

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#192

Post by squarefoot »

gampleman wrote: post #121

So if the problem is that TikTok is gathering too much invasive data on US citizens (and supposedly siphoning it to China), and their defence is basically "So what, it's legal and everyone else is doing it too!", then isn't the obvious solution making actual digital privacy legislation that would make such data vacuuming illegal? That would solve the problem and make the American market a fair playing field rather th…

That is not the problem. I'm not a US citizen, but let's pretend I am; as a normal citizen (ie, not a politician or high profile important person) would I be more concerned about my personal data being sent to a foreign country who doesn't know me, my family, my job, and very likely will never give a damn about what i think, or rather my own government who has all interests to know what I think, especially during protests? I have zero trust in Chinese government, but if I had to choose, even as the European citizen I am (not high profile, not employed in critical areas etc.), I'd rather send my data to China than to my own government.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#193

Post by mytailorisrich »

swebs wrote: post #175
buran77 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they are backed by an entity which has plans for global dominance and are not exactly aligned with American interests The irony is that each of the entities has plans for global dominance, which is incompatible with the plans and interests the other one has. The sad part is that it turns out the US is willing to forgo its values if this gives them a leg up on China. Makes any future rhetoric on values and morals se…

The USA has been the sole military superpower for 30 years now, with more power than the rest of the world combined. If they wanted global dominance, they'd already have it long ago.

> If they wanted global dominance, they'd already have it long ago

They have global dominance, and they got it long ago. The issue at play is not that they want it, it's that they want to keep it.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#194

Post by coldcode »

endogui wrote: post #185
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's owned by ByteDance, not the CPC.

ButeDance is a Chinese company responsible for complying with directives from the CCP. If one doesn't trust the CCP, then one should not trust ByteDance.

Facebook is American company responsible for complying with directives from the US Government. If one doesn't trust the US, then one should not trust Facebook.

How is this any different? The US is one of the Five Eyes countries. They routinely spy on their own people (see Snowdon et al). I see no difference between the two in this regard, other than the US has a court system that sometimes acts independently and has a Constitution that sometimes is followed.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#195

Post by sumedh »

_8j50 wrote: post #51

Is this not a freedom of speech issue? The right is guaranteed for foreingners in the US as well. If they can ban tik tok, they can ban signal or briar because those also might send your encrypted data overseas or because their use among "violent" protestors is a risk. How about VPN apps that siphon your personal data to china and russia! Haha Here's the thing, US bigtech complies (in secret) with US intel community…

> If americans want to be spied on by China in exchange for being able to use tiktok it's their right

Do you also think you have a right to not wear a mask during a pandemic or not wear a seatbelt while driving?

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#196

Post by _8j50 »

endogui wrote: post #170
_8j50 wrote: post #51

Is this not a freedom of speech issue? The right is guaranteed for foreingners in the US as well. If they can ban tik tok, they can ban signal or briar because those also might send your encrypted data overseas or because their use among "violent" protestors is a risk. How about VPN apps that siphon your personal data to china and russia! Haha Here's the thing, US bigtech complies (in secret) with US intel community…

If a publisher violates a tax law, it can be shut down without worrying about free speech issues. Same with a phone company or church in violation of federal laws (although large lawsuits are a given). Tiktok is not being shut down for its own speech, but for being an agent of foreign espionage and foreign contributions to political candidates (essentially). Thus the first ammendment issue is moot. Signal isn't spons…

That is regulation of commerce. A publisher exchanging books for detailed account of everything you do cannot be prevented from doing so. If they violate tax law their business license and finances maybe jeopardized but their right to exchange information is not.

Signal and Briar were examples. Ok, telegram, it's russian so should it be banned? Espionage has to di with state and national secrets. A foreign government spying on americans with their knowledge and consent is not espionage. How is facebook literally recording without consent not a bigger issue? Please ban facebook before tiktok. Google and Amazon have home assistants spying on americans which is magnitudes of order worse thab tiktok!

This is the thing you have to undetstand, bytedance (tiktok's creator) being cozy with ccp is not a whole lot different than facebook and zuckergerg being in bed with the trump admin or Google being in bed with obama admin ,except China is an ocean many nukes away from doing actual harm to americans and your own government is literally facilitating the death of your own citizens as we speak! Ban facebook,google and amazon because they are helping tear apart america while you're at it!

This is pure politics, sacrificing your right in fear of a boogeyman in China because the boogeyman here is on your side. You don't get to do that, if you disagree with the bill of rights have a constitutional convention and change it.

I get to to communicate with tiktok or even the chinese government if I want. And if I share my private life with them that's my right too. The government has no authority to prevent free excercise of my rights even if they don't like it.

Right now and in 2016 facebook was used to manipulate elections in the US. Shut it down because thay clearly is a national security risk if you truly believe the government policing what private information you share or consume is a good idea.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#197

Post by starfallg »

zarathustreal wrote: post #177
buran77 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they are backed by an entity which has plans for global dominance and are not exactly aligned with American interests The irony is that each of the entities has plans for global dominance, which is incompatible with the plans and interests the other one has. The sad part is that it turns out the US is willing to forgo its values if this gives them a leg up on China. Makes any future rhetoric on values and morals se…

Rhetoric is empty by definition, its purpose is to persuade. Also you’re speaking from a global point of view by addressing “the US” and “China” versus “our country” and “their country” so the idea that there exists “values and morals” in that context is also obviously incorrect as each culture has its own set. Even within a given culture there exists different sets. I’d go as far as to say that with the dissolution…

>I’d go as far as to say that with the dissolution of Christianity as a cohesive unifying religion within the US values and morality no longer exist as such. Each person’s beliefs change almost daily given how fast information and ideas spread on the internet and social networks. Appeals to morality are essentially dead in my opinion.

Yet in other developed countries (like many in Europe) where Christianity is no longer the dominant cultural institution, there is more social cohesiveness.

Religion in the US has been weaponised for political ends and became a means of tribal division in society.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#198

Post by sumedh »

ausbah wrote: post #191
itsoktocry wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At the same time, how can a single person decide the fate of a company in a different country? How is TikTok's fate being decided by a US ban? The CCP does this all the time, it isn't uncommon to ban foreign software.

because America isn't China?

So what is your solution to make sure China plays by the rules?

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#199

Post by Multicomp »

wcoenen wrote: post #176
boomboomsubban wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word "citizen" is not present in the Bill of Rights. The Amendments guarantee rights that you already have, countries can't give you rights.

> The Amendments guarantee rights that you already have, countries can't give you rights. This statement confused me, probably because I'm not from the US and am missing some cultural dogma/context. But the way I think about it, "rights" are not encoded in the laws of physics. They are social constructs. Therefore different societies can come up with a different and even conflicting set of "rights".

I make no claim to have any expertise in this field.

depending on what country you are from, you could be from a country that has a set of civil laws, as opposed to a country with a set of common laws.

common law countries tend to have enumerated rights that the government cannot take away, while civil law countries tend to have rights that because of the way that particular society is built, you have these rights.

The u.s. is the common-law state because of our declaration of Independence and Constitution that speak about how all men are created equal (before God) and thus since the government rules by the consent of the governed, the laws eumerated in things like the Bill of Rights are things that are just off limits to the US government, with limited scope contextual restrictions to non-negotiable absolute rights depending on their wordings.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#200

Post by dguest »

_8j50 wrote: post #51

Is this not a freedom of speech issue? The right is guaranteed for foreingners in the US as well. If they can ban tik tok, they can ban signal or briar because those also might send your encrypted data overseas or because their use among "violent" protestors is a risk. How about VPN apps that siphon your personal data to china and russia! Haha Here's the thing, US bigtech complies (in secret) with US intel community…

I'd like to see a similar approach to what happened with tobacco: test apps for spyware, put warning labels in big letters (or simple icons) right up front, teach kids about the dangers in school, but ultimately let everyone decide what they do.

Of course, just as with tobacco there are huge American companies which are going to oppose this sort of transparency. And of course rolling out teaching standards requires that some standardization for app privacy exist in the first place, so I don't expect this to happen fast (if it could ever happen at all).

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