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Larry Page Begins Major Google Reorg: Engineers, Not Managers, In Charge

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Re: Larry Page Begins Major Google Reorg: Engineers, Not Managers, In Charge

#31

Post by SoftwareMaven »

joebadmo wrote: post #24
Silhouette wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the tech industry this isn't really an issue (management being overemphasized). The thing is, in a lot of larger tech companies, I suspect it's the other way around: management is under-rated because the engineers have taken over the asylum. It's easy to point to huge, successful companies with a very pro-engineering culture like Facebook and connect the culture with the success, but how do we know they succeede…

You point to recent Google failures, but isn't their culture of allowing (even high profile) failures not only to get implemented, but then to get shut down part of why Google's successful? Which (the culture of allowing failure) seems like an engineering approach, and not a managerial (which to me has always struck me as fear-of-failure/CYA) one.

The question is whether those flops should have ever happened. I admire Google that they will kill unsuccessful products, but I question how well they understand the market when they have so many products to kill.

Re: Larry Page Begins Major Google Reorg: Engineers, Not Managers, In Charge

#32

Post by jyu »

joebadmo wrote: post #24
Silhouette wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the tech industry this isn't really an issue (management being overemphasized). The thing is, in a lot of larger tech companies, I suspect it's the other way around: management is under-rated because the engineers have taken over the asylum. It's easy to point to huge, successful companies with a very pro-engineering culture like Facebook and connect the culture with the success, but how do we know they succeede…

You point to recent Google failures, but isn't their culture of allowing (even high profile) failures not only to get implemented, but then to get shut down part of why Google's successful? Which (the culture of allowing failure) seems like an engineering approach, and not a managerial (which to me has always struck me as fear-of-failure/CYA) one.

That's exactly his point. Both Facebook and Google have secured market domination to a level where their culture, be it engineering or managerial, doesn't really matter.

Re: Larry Page Begins Major Google Reorg: Engineers, Not Managers, In Charge

#33

Post by juiceandjuice »

CoffeeDregs wrote: post #4

This is a big story. I'm both an engineer and a manager (to which engineers will say "management!" and managers will say "developer!"), and I haven't seen this pendulum swing back and forth so much as be ripped in half and pulled in opposite directions. Google's obviously got very smart folks in both engineering and management, so it's going to be very interesting to see how this is handled. I can't imagine a Microso…

I think both have their merits, but I think engineers should be the ones building projects/companies, and management should be the ones who run it. I don't think non-technical management should fundamentally be involved in development unless it's a manager who is also an engineer. In a sense, a traditional non-technical manager should be in charge of the monotonous, boring stuff and that only... stuff like QA, ops, marketing, etc... Basically maintenance-mode autopilots.

I'm a big fan of engineers turned manager though, after working with several different projects at my last company. The only problem with that is when their manager isn't an engineer and you end up with the same disconnect that you would normally get at the dev/manager level. It sounds like Google is, in reality, trying to eliminate that disconnect entirely, with managerial engineers the entire way up to CEO.

Re: Larry Page Begins Major Google Reorg: Engineers, Not Managers, In Charge

#34

Post by orblivion »

wh-uws wrote: post #30
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #27

I question the title. It doesn't sound like engineers are in charge, instead, it sounds like smaller operating units will be in charge. That is a very different thing from having the inmates running the asylum. I have yet to see a large company that successfully treats software as a creative endeavor instead of a production line that still manages to be able to focus on solving customer problems. I really hope that L…

Whomever figures out how build a company with the technical prowess and product aptitude of Google and have a comparative level of custom service will have created something truly great

They're clever people. You'd think they could come up with a clever way to solve their customer service problem.

Maybe it would have to be clever for them to want to bother with it.

Re: Larry Page Begins Major Google Reorg: Engineers, Not Managers, In Charge

#35

Post by blinkingled »

mikeryan wrote: post #22
blinkingled wrote: post #7

This got me thinking about role of managers in a modern org (to simplify things let's say it's a Tech company). It certainly needs a CEO/Visionary, it most likely needs HR and front/back office folks, it certainly needs PR and marketing people. But in a world where people communicate rarely in person, have their own management and economics 101 abilities, are smart enough to not work against their own interests (and…

But in a world where people ..., have their own management and economics 101 abilities, are smart enough to not work against their own interests (and look after the org's interests) - what's the role of the future manager? I don't know if there's as many people who have these abilities as you think there are.

Likely not but it still makes sense to give a chance to all the few talented people however many there are to actually create something instead of manage other less talented souls. Better for productivity and happiness IMHO!

Re: Larry Page Begins Major Google Reorg: Engineers, Not Managers, In Charge

#37

Post by wh-uws »

orblivion wrote: post #34
wh-uws wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whomever figures out how build a company with the technical prowess and product aptitude of Google and have a comparative level of custom service will have created something truly great

They're clever people. You'd think they could come up with a clever way to solve their customer service problem. Maybe it would have to be clever for them to want to bother with it.

Didn't mean it couldn't be Google. Just that its something they need to work on and whoever figures it out will get a pretty big spot in the history books

Re: Larry Page Begins Major Google Reorg: Engineers, Not Managers, In Charge

#38

Post by othermaciej »

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #27

I question the title. It doesn't sound like engineers are in charge, instead, it sounds like smaller operating units will be in charge. That is a very different thing from having the inmates running the asylum. I have yet to see a large company that successfully treats software as a creative endeavor instead of a production line that still manages to be able to focus on solving customer problems. I really hope that L…

Not even smaller operating units, it just sounds like things will be organized according to product rather than function. Other HN articles recently have mentioned how Google has a bunch of centralized organizations that report all the way to the top and are not responsible to any product group (Launch, Site Reliability, UX, Product Management, etc).

What's different about Android is not that Andy Rubin has an engineering background; many of Google's senior managers do, even in the big functional orgs. What's different is that Android is a product unit which largely does not depend on these external functional teams and has all its resources built in.

Re: Larry Page Begins Major Google Reorg: Engineers, Not Managers, In Charge

#39

Post by shin_lao »

CoffeeDregs wrote: post #4

This is a big story. I'm both an engineer and a manager (to which engineers will say "management!" and managers will say "developer!"), and I haven't seen this pendulum swing back and forth so much as be ripped in half and pulled in opposite directions. Google's obviously got very smart folks in both engineering and management, so it's going to be very interesting to see how this is handled. I can't imagine a Microso…

Actually AFAIK Microsoft is organized in business units (Windows, XBox, etc.)
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