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Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

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Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically you're arguing that the race to the bottoms is good for everyone involved. From a country that has hard fought-for USD16/hour minimum wage, paid 10 sick leave and 20 annual leave days per year, this doesn't appear true at all.

How does allowing flexible work arrangement imply “race to the bottom”?

Nothing precludes proper employees with flexible arrangements. Forfeiting overtime pay and other labor protections afforded by law are definitely race-to-the-bottomy.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#522
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but when 100k uber drivers (contractors) in California are reclassified as employees, it seem fair to say a "dispute" is happening. For the record, I am not saying the ruling is incorrect, but it does make me feel uneasy because: 1) I think that Uber does provide a public good (increased efficiency compared to a taxi) 2) If all drivers are employees, the business does not seem sustainable I think that new laws…

1) In Victorian Britain, child labour provided a great many public goods. 2) After it was outlawed, many of businesses that relied on it became unsustainable. I don't think it is sensible to justify exploitation with "but the public benefits from it' and 'without it the business might go under'. By that logic we'd still have Victorian workhouses, 12-hour workdays, and there'd be no health & safety.

> By that logic we'd still have Victorian workhouses, 12-hour workdays, and there'd be no health & safety.

What makes you think so? There's more than one reason for the demise of child labour. Society has gotten richer over time, and so families place a comparatively higher value on not having their children work.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#523
Before just randomly spouting out whether you personally feel like Uber and Lyft are employers, it might be helpful to look at the ELI5 criteria California lists at https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/FAQ_IndependentContractor.htm

> Under the ABC test, a worker is considered an employee and not an independent contractor, unless the hiring entity satisfies all three of the following conditions:

> The worker is free from the control and direction of the hiring entity in connection with the performance of the work, both under the contract for the performance of the work and in fact;

> The worker performs work that is outside the usual course of the hiring entity’s business; and

> The worker is customarily engaged in an independently established trade, occupation, or business of the same nature as that involved in the work performed.

It's not enough to just say "they feel like they don't work for Uber" you have to put forward a more coherent case than that.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#524
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but when 100k uber drivers (contractors) in California are reclassified as employees, it seem fair to say a "dispute" is happening. For the record, I am not saying the ruling is incorrect, but it does make me feel uneasy because: 1) I think that Uber does provide a public good (increased efficiency compared to a taxi) 2) If all drivers are employees, the business does not seem sustainable I think that new laws…

But for Uber being allowed to seize the market with their ultra low prices, which are only possible because they class their labor as contractors, there would be companies more like Uber than like taxis but that treat their employees like employees. The problem with taxis was the medallion system and other crazy regulations. There is a middle ground. No medallions or other protectionist measures, but you have to trea…

I wouldn't call that a middle ground, that would sort-of imply that your suggestion is in between the two approaches.

The old system with medallions also had the drivers as independent contractors.

Your suggestion would be something different from both existing approaches.

Edit: no opinion implied on whether your suggestion is any good or not.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#525
post #57

So I think the biggest question here is whether, as an employee, Uber/Lyft can set hours for a driver. Some specific implications: * Will we see employees (drivers) get a say in their shifts? An employee can be asked to work a 3AM - 9AM shift for example. * Can not arriving to shifts on time be grounds for dismissal? * Can refusing a shift be grounds for dismissal? * Can incurring unapproved overtime be grounds for d…

>Will we see employees (drivers) get a say in their shifts?

How different is it compared to now? I want to drive now but there are no customers.

> Can not arriving to shifts on time be grounds for dismissal?

> Can refusing a shift be grounds for dismissal?

Surely they're free to set lax conditions for employees?

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#526
post #7

It strikes me that these articles are always biased in the direction of the benefits of being an employee. I have several friends that actively choose to be contractors because they prefer the (legally protected) flexibility to decide their own hours, among other things. It's a personal decision, and there are upsides and downsides in both directions. Sure - some (non-insignificant) portion of Uber and Lyft drivers w…

It should be illegal to pay any form of wages, whether gig work or 9to5, without paying into social security, medicare, medicaid, and unemployment insurance. This pandemic has proven that EVERYONE needs unemployment insurance, and it is already well-known that everyone needs income and healthcare in retirement. Sp sure, let people do gig work on their own time, but don't let them opt out of the basic social safety ne…

I'm not American so I'm curious, do contractors not have to pay into these systems themselves? I'm from a European country, and if you're self-employed and working contracts, when you do your taxes, all the social insurance stuff instead gets paid by you directly (so your total income tax is much higher as you're paying all the employment taxes that are normally hidden from you)

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So if you live in a town with three welders, and those three welders come together and agree that they will not ever weld for below $X/h in the town (which is significantly above market price of nearby, equivalent towns), then that is not price-fixing, because the people that want welding services are suddenly "welder employers" because they are buying a service? I... don't think that's right. There is a huge differ…

1. Uber drivers are not commodified. There is in fact a difference between drivers, both known in advance (rating) and during/after the actual trip. I have had very pleasant experiences with some drivers, and very unpleasant experiences with others. The pleasant drivers I tipped extra and gave high ratings. The unpleasant ones I did the opposite. 2. I am not perpetuating a straw man that "all collective bargaining is…

>. Uber drivers are not commodified. There is in fact a difference between drivers, both known in advance (rating) and during/after the actual trip. I have had very pleasant experiences with some drivers, and very unpleasant experiences with others. The pleasant drivers I tipped extra and gave high ratings. The unpleasant ones I did the opposite.

This rating is given by Uber only. It is a single number, with nothing else. This is literal commodification, the exact same way that housing or vegetables are com modified following a grade or a rating. When drivers will be able to market themselves and make a case for themselves it will be something else. A synthetic, numerical rating is literally a hallmark of commodification.

>2. I am not perpetuating a straw man that "all collective bargaining is price-fixing". I am arguing that in this particular case, this is the bad one (price fixing), not the good one (collective bargaining). This is because the drivers (not Uber) have monopoly power in the market. The disagreement is stemming from the fact that you believe that any action taken by "labor" cannot be price-fixing, which I disagree with.

I've written about a dozen times. All collective bargaining is price fixing. Your argument that I am saying that it's not or that I am applying an inconsistent standard is literally a strawman.

>3. "This is ridiculous on its face." It is not ridiculous. This is called supply-and-demand and it actually works quite well for pricing things. If Uber "sets" the price too high, riders will not use the service. If they "set" the price too low, drivers will not want to participate and then you don't have a market. Again, the price is "set" at whatever value riders are willing to pay and drivers are willing to accept. Anything else and the system fundamentally doesn't work.

It is indeed ridiculous. It isn't the drivers negotiating with the riders, it is Uber negotiating with the riders. This is absolutely crucial. The driver has only the option to refuse work. This is, quite literally, how being an employee works. You have no input over the price of the good, you can only refuse or accept the job at the price and in a perfect frictionless vacuum your refusal or acceptance is perfectly mirrored in the end price. Which it isn't in practice for endless reasons, and certainly not in Uber where the margin Uber takes is a secret that no one knows and that varies instantly.

>a. you choose which rides you want. you are not forced to take certain rides ("make a certain app").

If you are an employee, you also aren't forced to make a certain app. You can refuse and either be assigned something else (that you didn't decide), or be fired. If you were a developer on Steam for example, you would be able to make any software, in any way you like, and charge exactly how much you like. All things you can't do on Uber. The right of refusal is also key to being an employee. Contractors, in general, have more than the right of refusal - they decide how the job is done.

>drivers can set prices

Only in California, in a transparent attempt to skirt the letter of the law, and only very, very indirectly through a multiplier.

>the Uber cut is not obscure (pretty sure it's always been 30%). The time this doesn't apply is when Uber gives both counterparties a great deal by paying the driver more and charging the rider less and using VC money to split the difference.

Not always! Uber claims that their cut is around 25-30%. You have to trust them, and independent analysis shows that the cut can exceed 50% in some cases : https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/08/uber-and-lyfts-c.... In any case, the algorithm used to calculate the fare charged to the rider and credited to the driver is different, so there can never be a fixed cut. It is obscure, and you can never know.

>my option with Stripe is "sell my app using them or not", ditto for Steam. Can I sell it without them? Sure. Just like a driver can sell private car-for-hire services without Uber.

On Stripe, you can sell almost anything. On Steam, you can sell any software at all. On Uber, you can only do the specific trip that Uber wants you to do at the price that Uber decided to offer you, and only in the specific route that is calculated, only in the specific allowed vehicles.

>You might want to break it to a number of companies that some of their core businesses don't actually exist because they came out of acquisitions. Regardless, that wasn't my point. Investors invested in a ride-sharing app. Uber makes money because they have an app. Without the app (but 1000s of drivers) they would not have a business. They would literally be a cab company. But actually they wouldn't be because they don't have any medallions, which you need if you're not connecting riders directly to drivers with... your app. The core business is definitely the app. That's how Lyft can also exist in the same space with the same drivers. Because their business is in making an app that enables a marketplace for ride-sharing, just like Uber. But it's a different app. But the same drivers. Given your assertions, I guess they're pretty lucky to exist in an industry where you could have 100 competing ride-sharing apps, but because "the drivers are their core business", they will all do just fine because they all have drivers!

Does Uber not have a contractual relationship with Uber drivers in which they must complete a ride? Does Uber not spend the vast majority of their revenue in this contractual relationship? Then it is core to their business. If Uber's job was only to connect riders to drivers, then the contractual obligation would be between drivers and riders, and not between drivers and Uber. This is as absurd as claiming that the core business of Microsoft is to connect users of operating systems with programmers. It isn't, it's to sell software, because the engineers have an obligation towards Microsoft.

>If I hire a guy to mow my lawn, I can stipulate that he uses an electric mower. Maybe this is because I care about the environment, don't like gas fumes, or want to look fancy in front of my neighbors. My reasons are my own and he is still an independent contractor.

If you hire a guy to mow your lawn, tell him exactly how to do it, specify the equipment with which you do so, and if he has no lawn-mowing practice, then yes he is your employee. Furthermore, you seem to be missing the fact that Uber drivers are contractors of Uber, not contractors to the riders.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#528
post #523

Before just randomly spouting out whether you personally feel like Uber and Lyft are employers, it might be helpful to look at the ELI5 criteria California lists at https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/FAQ_IndependentContractor.htm > Under the ABC test, a worker is considered an employee and not an independent contractor, unless the hiring entity satisfies all three of the following conditions: > The worker is free from the c…

This is oddly specifically drafted to capture gig economy workers like this.

My employer employs people (on a permanent ongoing basis) who meet some of these conditions to be classed as an independent contractor...

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is that Uber currently exerts so much control over its "independent contractor" relationships that they have become, as a matter of law, employment relationships. Sure, this could be true. But people should recognize that a possible solution to this, is for companies to provide more flexibility and control to these people, such that they stay contractor but also get the additional contractor benefits, a…

This would likely involve allowing drivers to set their own rates or handing over driver allocation responsibilities to another party. It’s really hard to envision a world where Uber hands over those kinds of abilities to someone. Companies like this rely on owning and setting the conditions of a market to keep prices competitive.

Why? Uber could easily set up an auction system similar to how Google auctions off ad space. And Google is certainly happy with the amount of control they retain.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#530

The consequences of this ruling are probably not going to be known for a while. This is certainly bad for Uber & Lyft insofar as it will greatly increase their operating costs. The question is what effect the ruling will have on drivers. Uber is not a profitable company with fat margins like Google, Facebook, Amazon, Apple or Netflix. I don't see any way for Uber to absorb the increased costs that come with full empl…

The whole point is that Uber isn't actually treating its drivers like contractors. Any theoretical benefit to being a contractor is not really relevant if they don't have those rights in practice.

I'm not sure you can claim that with confidence if you haven't driven with Uber before. Many drivers hold the opposite opinion as well and prefer to keep their job and only drive whenever they're free.
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