I can't see Uber not doing everything they can to fight this
Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees
451–460 of 781 posts
Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees
#452Earlier quoted context omitted.
> All the toxic workplace stuff was just a narrative tool That's a pretty bold claim. What of all the reports of a toxic workplace? I've heard first-hand accounts.
I think he was arguing that the execs at Uber didn't really care about the toxic workplace stuff until Uber's founder said he didn't want to IPO, then they used it as a way to kick him out. So basically the workplace is toxic, but that's not the real reason why he was kicked out (according to the comment you were replying to).
He effort you have him ousted was led by Bill Gurley of Benchmark and several other VC investors in Uber. Essentially the board asked him to step down and he did.
Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees
#453Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes and? If I owned slaves and called them unpaid indefinite interns the law would rightly disagree. You can call the relationship whatever you like, but the law is there to keep the playing field level for everyone. That it's taken Uber so long to play by the same rules as everyone else is a travesty and should take a billion dollar law suit or two for damages to sort out.
Uber is in a legal grey area. They are independent contractors in the sense that they can choose how much and when to work. They are employees in that they cannot negotiate rates. I don't think it's so clear cut.
Given that rates are determined collectively by deciding whether or not it's worth your time to go online given the current level of surge. If enough drivers decide it's not worth it, the price will change. This is a pretty standard pricing mechanism in any market for an easily fungible good or service (read: commodity).
Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees
#454Earlier quoted context omitted.
And maybe if you keep signalling to a company that you want to do contract work for them but never submit any bids for what they put out as jobs, they'll start ignoring you as not serious. Being a contractor doesn't mean you get to pick where you work, it means you get to pick where you work out of the people willing to hire you for contract work. Many companies have different criteria for what they require out of co…
> And maybe if you keep signalling to a company that you want to do contract work for them but never submit any bids for what they put out as jobs, they'll start ignoring you as not serious. Okay, but none of this is about people who wanted to do work for Uber but didn't. This issue is about people who did in fact do work for Uber. If you never submit any bids and never do any work, you're neither a contractor nor an…
Well, this specific tangent is about whether Uber drivers are like contractors in that they get to choose their jobs/rates or aren't. Specifically, I was responding to:
>>> except uber/lyft will remove you from the platform if you decline too many rides, thereby only giving the illusion of choice.
I don't see any real difference to that than to someone who was is contractor and maybe did some work, but hasn't responded in a while and the company removes them from the list of people they notify (and fast-track) for bids. If I'm at a company and I have a couple preferred contractors and one hasn't even bothered to reply to my the last few times I contacted them, maybe I'll lose faith in them being responsive while they're on the job.
Any contractor relationship is a two way street. If either side doesn't maintain the relationship, the other side may choose to alter it or cut if off entirely.
Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees
#455Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm afraid you're repeating Uber's favorite talking point, which is that everyone should respect the worker's decision to be an employee or contractor. Nobody disputes that Uber can have employees or contractors (or both), or that drivers should, in principle, be able to choose what status they hold. The problem is that Uber currently exerts so much control over its "independent contractor" relationships that they ha…
The fact that it's Uber's talking point doesn't make it any less true. If rideshare drivers are employees, then there's going to be fixed overhead costs of hiring employees and drivers will not be able to set their own hours. The rideshare company would not recoup the costs of benefits for drivers that drive less than a certain number of hours per month, and so drivers would have to be required to work at least that…
> If rideshare drivers are employees, then there's going to be fixed overhead costs of hiring employees and drivers will not be able to set their own hours
There will be less flexibility about hours, but less risk that an hour reserved for work will be unpaid. Within the need not to overbook available business, and laws requiring payment for scheduled time even if cancelled at the lat minute, there's no inherent reason rideshare companies couldn't provide scheduling flexibility, including a notice-of-availability system for immediate call-ups.
(Optimizing decision algorithms for when to bring on additional staff becomes is a challenge that this opens up, also similar with when to accept the cost of short-noticd cancelling scheduled shifts.)
> The rideshare company would not recoup the costs of benefits for drivers that drive less than a certain number of hours per month
Nor would they be required to provide benefits for them; most benefit mandates apply only to full-time employees, not part-time employees.
Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees
#456Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I can imagine Uber offering jobs v.s. contractor positions with differing levels of support, remuneration, and expectations. Legally, in California, they can't do that. As outlined in the article, the 'ABC test' is the legal test for determining whether someone is an employee or a contractor. The 'B' part of that test is "The worker performs work that is outside the usual course of the hiring entity's business." If…
> argued that they were basically doing the same work as employees I think that's case by case though. Contractors usually do finite focused projects and don't want to be employees. I myself was self-employed for 5 years doing specific contracts as a software engineer. I was "writing code" which is "the same work" as employees. Were all those companies breaking the law? > Legally, in California, they can't do that. D…
> I think that's case by case though. Contractors usually do finite focused projects and don't want to be employees. I myself was self-employed for 5 years doing specific contracts as a software engineer. I was "writing code" which is "the same work" as employees. Were all those companies breaking the law?
The AB5 law has only been in effect since Jan 1.
The federal rules are already very strict. Generally contractors violate them a lot. The law was pushed by IBM to eliminate competition, and the feds incorrectly thought they would get more tax money by making the software contractor industry into employees. It's a sordid tale ending in domestic terrorism and murder: https://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/19/us/19tax.html
Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees
#457Earlier quoted context omitted.
The fourth contractor submits a bid above the minimum price.
Yes, sorry, I misspoke (edit: actually, I think you misspoke in your previous comment, and then I copied the mistake). But no, the fourth contractor did not submit a bid at a higher price. They did not submit a bid at all.
Ah yes, indeed I did.
I see your point too. Essentially, rather than contractors proposing prices and then clients accepting or moving on, if clients propose prices and then contractors accept or move on, it's still a market with negotiated rates.
Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees
#458Earlier quoted context omitted.
And maybe if you keep signalling to a company that you want to do contract work for them but never submit any bids for what they put out as jobs, they'll start ignoring you as not serious. Being a contractor doesn't mean you get to pick where you work, it means you get to pick where you work out of the people willing to hire you for contract work. Many companies have different criteria for what they require out of co…
Turning down a ride request is not the same as not submitting a bid.
I would say it's the equivalent of going through the process of jumping through hoops to be a contractor at a company, maybe doing some jobs (or not), and then failing to respond at all if they send some work your way. If you show yourself not responsive to their time constraints, they very well may decide it's not worth notifying you of work items, and ignoring any bids you submit.
Contract work is all about trust. If you show any behavior that makes you look less reliable, are they going to trust you with work? Flipped around, if the company doesn't respond to requests for payment, are you going to want to do work for them? It works both ways.
Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees
#459Earlier quoted context omitted.
Employees can set their own hours. White collar employees do it all the time... It's up to the employer what freedoms they allow. Generally, like with existing businesses, it would probably utilize a shift assignment system, where employees get assigned shifts but can swap them with other employees.
The aforementioned drivers opting to work 10 hours a week, what are their options? The way I see it, as employees, their employers will either give them benefits for 10 hour work, or force them to work 40 hours.
> The way I see it, as employees, their employers will either give them benefits for 10 hour work, or force them to work 40 hours.
Most benefit mandates apply to full-time workers, usually triggered at somewhere between 30-35 hours/week; those that apply to part time workers at all tend to be scaled down for them based on working hours.
Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees
#460It strikes me that these articles are always biased in the direction of the benefits of being an employee. I have several friends that actively choose to be contractors because they prefer the (legally protected) flexibility to decide their own hours, among other things. It's a personal decision, and there are upsides and downsides in both directions. Sure - some (non-insignificant) portion of Uber and Lyft drivers w…
You realize there are tons of jobs with employees that allow employees to chose their own hours. There is nothing in this ruling that prevents Uber from allowing people to chose rides _exactly_ as they are doing it now. The changes are: 1. Uber needs to pay into unemployment insurance. 2. Uber needs to pay into workers compensation. 3. Uber needs to pay into social security. 4. Uber needs to collect payroll taxes in…
Do you have examples of jobs where employees choose their own hours and can work for competitors?