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Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

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Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two things. Firstly, if you consider that Uber is only an intermediary and nothing else, then the consumer is the employer . Making this collective bargaining, Employers are consumers in the labour market. Price fixing is always against the interests of a pure consumer, including collective bargaining. Unions are beneficial because (and only if) the vast majority are workers much moreso than consumers. Secondly, as w…

So if you live in a town with three welders, and those three welders come together and agree that they will not ever weld for below $X/h in the town (which is significantly above market price of nearby, equivalent towns), then that is not price-fixing , because the people that want welding services are suddenly "welder employers" because they are buying a service? I... don't think that's right. The price of rides is…

The example with welders would work if there were consumers individually bargaining with each welder / driver. However prices are set by an opaque algorithm, and I as a consumer or as a driver cannot actually control the offer, or offer more/less. In this context, I believe the algorithm/Uber is the one doing price fixing in real-time, and the drivers are merely trying to reign it in.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#432
post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not?

It's equivalent to submitting a lower bid. (The point is moot though because apparently Uber rolled out a feature that allows drivers in California to set their rates).

A town wants a bridge built. They set a maximum price. Three contractors submits bids. They are all at the maximum price – instead the contractors differentiate themselves based on quality of previous work and distance to the construction site.

A fourth contractor thinks the price is too little and rejects it outright.

The fourth contractor has "submitted a lower bid"?

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can imagine Uber offering jobs v.s. contractor positions with differing levels of support, remuneration, and expectations. Legally, in California, they can't do that. As outlined in the article, the 'ABC test' is the legal test for determining whether someone is an employee or a contractor. The 'B' part of that test is "The worker performs work that is outside the usual course of the hiring entity's business." If…

> argued that they were basically doing the same work as employees I think that's case by case though. Contractors usually do finite focused projects and don't want to be employees. I myself was self-employed for 5 years doing specific contracts as a software engineer. I was "writing code" which is "the same work" as employees. Were all those companies breaking the law? > Legally, in California, they can't do that. D…

In the UK, the government has taken the view that in some sense, yes, some contractors who were claiming to be self-employed were in fact employees and therefore have to pay more tax (the same tax as other employees), and can claim fewer expenses against tax (also the same as other employees). The underlying principle is equal treatment.

There is no advantage to the individuals from that decision, nor is there any intended.

So people spending 5 years working for the same company doing the same commute and same work as employees, subject to the same kind of control over their work etc., cannot maintain a claim to be self-employeed for the tax flexibility that goes with that.

However. You "writing code" as a contractor is not the same work as an employee if the manner in which you are doing it differs.

For example, if you have to purchase your own equipment, set your own hours, work on a "statement of work" basis instead of set hours, can substitute a subcontractor to do your work for you, and can and sometimes do work for multiple companies at the same time, and often switch the site at which you are working, those sorts of things signify that you are not operating as an employee would, and that it would be correct to classify you as running your own business and therefore subject to business taxation instead.

Of course every contractor wanted to claim that status for the tax benefits, which are basically less income tax and the ability to deduct more expenses. The government saw this and decided, although the law was what it was all along, people weren't applying it adequately. So they changed who does the assesment, and the tax liability if they get it wrong, from the contractor to the company hiring them. This is called the IR35 reform; IR35 is the name of the legislation that sets out what kind of working patterns must be treated as employment for tax purposes.

Although the reform will change who is liable for making the assessment, in principle it is still possible for a contractor to be retroactively assessed for their past as having been an employee all along, and have to pay back-tax. That's because you are supposed to have done the right assessment for yourself already, or perhaps your accountant should. This seems unlikely for most people now as long as the changes are followed through, but some people have been caught out by it.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like changing that would be an easier and less disruptive fix?

Imagine the fun metagames this would cause. If the government took Uber's stick away, the company would be forced to find a rate at which they'd have enough drivers to allow for reasonably short pickup time. Drivers then could, over their local "$city Uber drivers" FB/WhatsApp group, agree to not take any ride below $X, thus forcing Uber to raise their rates to $X (+ Uber's cut). (While dropping drivers from the plat…

> "the company would be forced to find a rate at which they'd have enough drivers to allow for reasonably short pickup time."

Oh the humanity, how will they manage? They only have like the entire dataset of all rides ever taken plus a world class data science team plus a ton of market power. Will they be able to negotiate on equal footing rate with cab-drivers?

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#436
post #7

It strikes me that these articles are always biased in the direction of the benefits of being an employee. I have several friends that actively choose to be contractors because they prefer the (legally protected) flexibility to decide their own hours, among other things. It's a personal decision, and there are upsides and downsides in both directions. Sure - some (non-insignificant) portion of Uber and Lyft drivers w…

HN FACT CHECK:

IRS Common Law Rules for Determining Status:

Behavioral: Does the company control or have the right to control what the worker does and how the worker does his or her job?

Financial: Are the business aspects of the worker’s job controlled by the payer? (these include things like how worker is paid, whether expenses are reimbursed, who provides tools/supplies, etc.)

Type of Relationship: Are there written contracts or employee type benefits? Will the relationship continue and is the work performed a key aspect of the business?

Source: https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe...

CA ABC Test:

Autonomy. The worker must be free from the control and direction of the hiring entity with regard to how the work is performed.

Business Dissimilarity. The worker’s labor or services must fall outside the usual course of the hiring entity’s business.

Custom of the Worker. The worker must be customarily engaged in an independently established trade, occupation, or business of the same nature as that involved in the work performed.

Source: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can imagine Uber offering jobs v.s. contractor positions with differing levels of support, remuneration, and expectations. Legally, in California, they can't do that. As outlined in the article, the 'ABC test' is the legal test for determining whether someone is an employee or a contractor. The 'B' part of that test is "The worker performs work that is outside the usual course of the hiring entity's business." If…

> argued that they were basically doing the same work as employees I think that's case by case though. Contractors usually do finite focused projects and don't want to be employees. I myself was self-employed for 5 years doing specific contracts as a software engineer. I was "writing code" which is "the same work" as employees. Were all those companies breaking the law? > Legally, in California, they can't do that. D…

> > Legally, in California, they can't do that.

> Definitely wrong.

Based on what? Were you a contractor while AB5 was in place? Everything I have seen suggests that Uber and Lyft will be legally prevented from having drivers that are classified as contractors.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#438
post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's equivalent to submitting a lower bid. (The point is moot though because apparently Uber rolled out a feature that allows drivers in California to set their rates).

A town wants a bridge built. They set a maximum price. Three contractors submits bids. They are all at the maximum price – instead the contractors differentiate themselves based on quality of previous work and distance to the construction site. A fourth contractor thinks the price is too little and rejects it outright. The fourth contractor has "submitted a lower bid"?

The fourth contractor submits a bid above the minimum price.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#439
post #7

It strikes me that these articles are always biased in the direction of the benefits of being an employee. I have several friends that actively choose to be contractors because they prefer the (legally protected) flexibility to decide their own hours, among other things. It's a personal decision, and there are upsides and downsides in both directions. Sure - some (non-insignificant) portion of Uber and Lyft drivers w…

I don't see why Uber couldn't offer that same flexibility to employees. I'm an employee and I have a lot of flexibility about when and how much I work - that's a matter of policy that Uber could offer if they chose to.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#440
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are free to fire a contractor for any reason, but if you consistently fire contractors for doing things that you would prefer that they not do but which you cannot mandate they not do because they are not employees, then you undermine the claim that they are in fact contractors.

If a contractor always overcharge you it seems normal to stop business with him, how is this different?

If by overcharging you mean billing for more hours than were in fact done, that's fraud and is a different matter entirely.

Obviously you may stop working with a person if their prices are too high or because quality of their work is shit.

However if you use this as a pretence for firing contractors, but the real reason you are firing them is because of their sex / gender / race - that would be illegal.

In the same vein, if you fire contractors for doing things that are none of your business, and it is common knowledge that you do that and exercise control you should not have over them, then a court may decide that in fact the relationship is not that of a contractor. That in fact this is nothing more than a legal fiction created for the purpose of tax avoidance or similar.

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