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Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

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Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#281

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

threepio wrote: post #186
rdgthree wrote: post #7

It strikes me that these articles are always biased in the direction of the benefits of being an employee. I have several friends that actively choose to be contractors because they prefer the (legally protected) flexibility to decide their own hours, among other things. It's a personal decision, and there are upsides and downsides in both directions. Sure - some (non-insignificant) portion of Uber and Lyft drivers w…

I'm afraid you're repeating Uber's favorite talking point, which is that everyone should respect the worker's decision to be an employee or contractor. Nobody disputes that Uber can have employees or contractors (or both), or that drivers should, in principle, be able to choose what status they hold. The problem is that Uber currently exerts so much control over its "independent contractor" relationships that they ha…

This comment is just wrong on so many levels:

"I'm afraid you're repeating Uber's favorite talking point, which is that everyone should respect the worker's decision to be an employee or contractor."

I've never seen Uber argue that everyone should "respect the worker's decision to be an employee or contractor." I have seen them argue that drivers are contractors based on the flexibility in the job, but not that it should be "the worker's decision".

"Nobody disputes that Uber can have employees or contractors (or both), or that drivers should, in principle, be able to choose what status they hold."

Actually, pretty much all US employment law disputes that drivers should be able to choose what status they hold. Employee vs. contractor is not determined by what an employer says someone is, or what an employee says they are. Instead, it is determined by some key factors about the nature of the job, which (as you do point out) mainly centers around control of important aspects of the job.

But it is important to understand that you never really get to "choose" whether you're a contractor or an employee, it's determined solely as a function of the type or work you do and the nature of your relationship to the employer.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#282

Post by [deleted] »

rdgthree wrote: post #7

It strikes me that these articles are always biased in the direction of the benefits of being an employee. I have several friends that actively choose to be contractors because they prefer the (legally protected) flexibility to decide their own hours, among other things. It's a personal decision, and there are upsides and downsides in both directions. Sure - some (non-insignificant) portion of Uber and Lyft drivers w…

[deleted]

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#283

Post by baddox »

kbenson wrote: post #129
MAGZine wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

except uber/lyft will remove you from the platform if you decline too many rides, thereby only giving the illusion of choice.

And maybe if you keep signalling to a company that you want to do contract work for them but never submit any bids for what they put out as jobs, they'll start ignoring you as not serious. Being a contractor doesn't mean you get to pick where you work, it means you get to pick where you work out of the people willing to hire you for contract work. Many companies have different criteria for what they require out of co…

> And maybe if you keep signalling to a company that you want to do contract work for them but never submit any bids for what they put out as jobs, they'll start ignoring you as not serious.

Okay, but none of this is about people who wanted to do work for Uber but didn't. This issue is about people who did in fact do work for Uber. If you never submit any bids and never do any work, you're neither a contractor nor an employee.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#284

Post by stale2002 »

zaksoup wrote: post #242
stale2002 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is that Uber currently exerts so much control over its "independent contractor" relationships that they have become, as a matter of law, employment relationships. Sure, this could be true. But people should recognize that a possible solution to this, is for companies to provide more flexibility and control to these people, such that they stay contractor but also get the additional contractor benefits, a…

> Sure, this could be true To be fair, given that a judge has ruled on it, it now is true as a matter of law until repealed or otherwise changed by a higher court...

I don't think a singular lower court decision is relevant in the context of large scale court cases like this.

The real decision will be made many months, or years, from now once everything had made its way through the appeal process.

The current one doesn't really mean much.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#285

Post by c3534l »

julienb_sea wrote: post #201
c3534l wrote: post #56

I'm not surprised. Uber and Lyft try co classify their workers as contractors when it comes to taxes and benefits, yet undermine workers abilities to actually be independent contractors when it suits them to do so. If you want to be a platform that helps connect drivers with passengers, then be that app. You can't then go in and set rates, not pay per client, not give contractors the ability to work for the customers…

Part of the reason Uber and Lyft work so well for riders is due to how they structure the relationship between drivers and their platform. Drivers are required to conform to the platform's payment structure. This enables predictable up-front pricing for rides before they are even requested. This enables the surge pricing system, which rapidly ramps up supply to match surges of demand. Drivers can decline rides at wil…

If your points are true, then all that really means is that there is a structural, economic incentive to not be structured as a platform and that the old model, of having cab companies with drivers who are employed by that company, is the most naturally efficient structure. That's fine, except for the part where they claim their employees are independent contractors, which would be tax fraud if they didn't try to structure in plausible deniability as best they could. That was the criticism I started with: they want to treat their workers as independent contractors when and to the extent that it benefits to do so, and they want to treat them like employees when it doesn't. "the relationship between driver and platform is structured to ensure a consistent driver and rider experience" - yes, that relationship has a specific name and that name is "employer." Uber and Lyft want to employ drivers to work for them, but want to avoid paying taxes on it. This is a dangerous game they're playing.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#286

Post by sudosysgen »

poizan42 wrote: post #231
drusepth wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Drivers then could, over their local "$city Uber drivers" FB/WhatsApp group, agree to not take any ride below $X, >This is, of course, illegal. What law does this break?

In the US, I think it's Section 1 of the Sherman Antitrust Act. It's referenced from the Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing

I'm, to say the very least, not sure that the Sherman Anti-trust Act prevents collective bargaining.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#287

Post by throw_m239339 »

lhh wrote: post #50

Leave it to California to stick it to a company losing $7 billion per year trying to find its footing. Drivers are voluntarily entering into the current work arrangement. Why does the government need to have an opinion on the matter?

> Why does the government need to have an opinion on the matter?

Because constituents voted for that government which gave them the power to vote employment laws that apply to Uber/Lyft. Or are you contesting the legitimacy of the democratic process, and California's constitution?

Uber/Lyft are free to move their business to another state.

> Drivers are voluntarily entering into the current work arrangement

Irrelevant, not all "arrangements" are legal. By that logic slavery should be legal as well, if the slave enters in a slave agreement willingly, to settle a debt for instance.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#288

Post by george120 »

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Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#289

Post by JMTQp8lwXL »

Karunamon wrote: post #275
JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an interesting flavor of ad hominem. While the post isn't a personal attack, it severely degrades the argument by calling it a 'meme'. Omitting the first sentence, and leaving the second, would be far more effective. https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7512/15985103560_ed7985fc2a_o...

People are deserving of respect, arguments less so. I see no reason to grant any particular deference to a sentence.

Saying an argument is false because it's a meme isn't a rational way to argue against a thought. You argue against things with facts and evidence. It's more disrespectful of the opposition if that's the strongest remark the opposition can make.

I suppose the great-grandparent is more an 'appeal to emotion' fallacy rather than ad hominem.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#290

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #281
threepio wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm afraid you're repeating Uber's favorite talking point, which is that everyone should respect the worker's decision to be an employee or contractor. Nobody disputes that Uber can have employees or contractors (or both), or that drivers should, in principle, be able to choose what status they hold. The problem is that Uber currently exerts so much control over its "independent contractor" relationships that they ha…

This comment is just wrong on so many levels: "I'm afraid you're repeating Uber's favorite talking point, which is that everyone should respect the worker's decision to be an employee or contractor." I've never seen Uber argue that everyone should "respect the worker's decision to be an employee or contractor." I have seen them argue that drivers are contractors based on the flexibility in the job, but not that it sh…

What is the point of this comment?

You've effectively spend a few paragraphs adding nothing of value to the conversation.

You've effectively restated the grandparent's points, but tried to do so in an adversarial manner.

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