A man who saved Kyoto from the atomic bomb (2015) • Hacker News Board

Re: A man who saved Kyoto from the atomic bomb (2015)

#121

Post by mardifoufs » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 3:53 PM UTC

boomboomsubban wrote: post #112

mardifoufs wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, I'm not following. The declaration of Cairo clearly stated that the US will accept unconditional surrender. There was no need to inform Japan of that by that point, they were fully aware that the US would have accepted an unconditional surrender. There were no terms to inform the Japanese of. Keep in mind they were dropping leaflets warning the target cities' population of imminent doom for days before the…

>The declaration of Cairo clearly stated that the US will accept unconditional surrender. There was no need to inform Japan of that by that point, they were fully aware that the US would have accepted an unconditional surrender Those aren't terms. On a simple, likely over discused level, the Japanese leaders were against the removal of the Emperor. If the US had provided terms accepting a figurehead role for him they…

The terms were unconditional surrender & Japan wanted far more than just keeping the emperor prior to the bombings. In any case, Japan did surrender unconditionally. They tried to add a clause protecting the emperor, vut the americans were clear that unconditional meant unconditional and japan ended up agreeing with that. So It wasn't part of a separate peace offer, it was just fully unconditional surrender. The US only ended up letting the emperor stay to keep stability and ease occupation, but were not obliged to do so

Re: A man who saved Kyoto from the atomic bomb (2015)

#122

Post by boomboomsubban » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 4:29 PM UTC

mardifoufs wrote: post #121

boomboomsubban wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The declaration of Cairo clearly stated that the US will accept unconditional surrender. There was no need to inform Japan of that by that point, they were fully aware that the US would have accepted an unconditional surrender Those aren't terms. On a simple, likely over discused level, the Japanese leaders were against the removal of the Emperor. If the US had provided terms accepting a figurehead role for him they…

The terms were unconditional surrender & Japan wanted far more than just keeping the emperor prior to the bombings. In any case, Japan did surrender unconditionally. They tried to add a clause protecting the emperor, vut the americans were clear that unconditional meant unconditional and japan ended up agreeing with that. So It wasn't part of a separate peace offer, it was just fully unconditional surrender. The US o…

The United States could have detailed the Potsdam Declaration's demands and turned them into terms of surrender fitting the Szilárd petition. Japan may have surrendered if they did, they at least had doubts that maintaining territory was still possible.

We'll never know, as instead they demanded unconditional surrender and used atomic bombs to force acceptance.

Either way, the US was never in a scenario where their only option was nuke cities or a full scale invasion.

Re: A man who saved Kyoto from the atomic bomb (2015)

#123

Post by anonAndOn » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 4:42 PM UTC

Ma8ee wrote: post #55

barrenko wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trust me, to many non-Americans US remains the sole idea of a free country, whatever happened over there so far.

I can think of several west-European countries that are better models (even though none are completely without faults).

Free to be born king/queen of the monarchy?[0] Free to be born titled nobility? [0, again]

[0]England, Spain, Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, others?

Re: A man who saved Kyoto from the atomic bomb (2015)

#124

Post by oh_sigh » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 5:05 PM UTC

loriverkutya wrote: post #42

oh_sigh wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn't a shortage of bytes for storing HN comments - you can go ahead and quote the full phrase of "literally every Japanese person the pilot ran across ". Would you have supported the internment if 110,000 of those 120,000 people supported Japan in their war against the USA?

The more important question is, why you seems to be supporting putting 120,000 people to camps based on the fact, that 3 people helped the pilot.

I clearly said 110,000 in this hypothetical, not 3.

Re: A man who saved Kyoto from the atomic bomb (2015)

#125

Post by oh_sigh » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 5:06 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #44

oh_sigh wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the Japanese interment sucks, but I wonder what would have happened if there was no internment. Could US wartime industry on the West coast have operated successfully under constant sabotage? Would it be better for America to lose the war to Japan (or at least reach a deal and let Japan keep all of the Pacific islands and Chinese land holdings) if it meant that the internment didn't happen? It's impossible to f…

The US should have simply interned all citizens regardless of their background to fully guarantee that no citizen could have sabotaged the war effort.

Some groups presumably would be much more likely to sabotage the war effort than others.

Re: A man who saved Kyoto from the atomic bomb (2015)

#126

Post by Ma8ee » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

anonAndOn wrote: post #123

Ma8ee wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can think of several west-European countries that are better models (even though none are completely without faults).

Free to be born king/queen of the monarchy?[0] Free to be born titled nobility? [0, again] [0]England, Spain, Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, others?

Who has absolutely no significant power, or privileges. I take the Swedish Royal family over the Murdochs, Busches, Trumps or Clintons any day. I hope you aren’t so naive that you think that the US are free from privileges by birth.

Re: A man who saved Kyoto from the atomic bomb (2015)

#127

Post by Ma8ee » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 5:41 PM UTC

csomar wrote: post #81

Ma8ee wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You write like there are dangers that the US might forget or lose their values, like innocent until proven guilty or that everybody is created equal. The US has never lived up to those. Guantanamo Bay Detention Camp (I hope no one forgot about that one) or all the tragic events that ignited the BLM movement are just current examples.

As someone coming from a region that suffered lots of US interference: The US is the world’s last hope to have full peace, open trade and modern value/societies. Woman did not have rights in most of the world because they wanted to. But because the US pressured them to.

I’m honestly perplexed that anyone can think that. The US has supported many more oppressive regimes than any liberation movements, and often toppled left leaning democracies to install their own capitalist puppets.

Re: A man who saved Kyoto from the atomic bomb (2015)

#128

Post by anonAndOn » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 6:20 PM UTC

Ma8ee wrote: post #126

anonAndOn wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free to be born king/queen of the monarchy?[0] Free to be born titled nobility? [0, again] [0]England, Spain, Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, others?

Who has absolutely no significant power, or privileges. I take the Swedish Royal family over the Murdochs, Busches, Trumps or Clintons any day. I hope you aren’t so naive that you think that the US are free from privileges by birth.

The thing about the US is, it usually takes a generation or two to make it to the top (Kennedy, Trump) but some ambitious upstarts can do it without generational wealth (Clinton, Obama). Then, the kids (mostly) and grandkids (definitely) fade into obscurity. When was the last time you saw an old-world royal lineage fade into obscurity? (France, 1789?) So some great-great-great(^n) descendent of some conquerer of yesteryear has a guaranteed place at the table in directing the modern European nation because why, exactly?

Re: A man who saved Kyoto from the atomic bomb (2015)

#129

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 7:16 PM UTC

Ma8ee wrote: post #127

csomar wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone coming from a region that suffered lots of US interference: The US is the world’s last hope to have full peace, open trade and modern value/societies. Woman did not have rights in most of the world because they wanted to. But because the US pressured them to.

I’m honestly perplexed that anyone can think that. The US has supported many more oppressive regimes than any liberation movements, and often toppled left leaning democracies to install their own capitalist puppets.

[deleted]

Re: A man who saved Kyoto from the atomic bomb (2015)

#130

Post by oh_sigh » Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 7:48 PM UTC

ElMono wrote: post #119

chefkoch wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why didn't that happen with the germans and italians in the US?

Especially for the roughly 20,000 supporters of the German American Bund that openly supported the Nazi regime. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_Bund

The group whose leaders were thrown into jail, stripped of citizenship, and forced to flee to Mexico?