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Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

reuters.com

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Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#341

Post by Paradigma11 »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #87
khuey wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really shouldn't. She's alleged to have committed bank fraud against American banks. Bank fraud is a crime everywhere.

She's alleged to have been an officer in a company that disobeyed American prohibitions on trade with Iran. Calling it "bank fraud" is just a way of avoiding the question of what she did that was wrong. Who's arresting Anish Kapoor and his co-conspirators for committing fraud against Stuart Semple?

But she did intentionally lie to the banks which, based on this lies, committed actions that they could be prosecuted for.

The validity of the iran embargo does not play a lot into this.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#342

Post by ashconnor »

Paradigma11 wrote: post #333
ashconnor wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can blame Sir Alexander Grantham and successive incompetent Governors such as Chris Patten who failed to implement democratic reforms well ahead of the handover.

Well, they did not really have much choice. China had made their position quite clear: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_development_in_Hong... "1960s China's leaders explicitly wanted to "preserve the colonial status of Hong Kong".[21] Liao Chengzhi, a senior Chinese official in charge of Hong Kong affairs, said in 1960 that China "shall not hesitate to take positive action to have Hong Kong, Kowloon and New…

Democratic reform was cancelled before the communists took power. Read the paragraph before the one you just posted.

> In 1946, shortly after the war, critical voices were raised against colonialism. Governor Sir Mark Young proposed a 48-member Municipal Council with significant competence to govern, one-third elected by non-Chinese, one third by Chinese institutions and one-third by Chinese individuals, known as the "Young Plan", believing that, "to counter the Chinese government's determination to recover Hong Kong, it was necessary to give local inhabitants a greater stake in the territory by widening the political franchise to include them."[9] The reform failed because of much resistance from expatriate companies, a new conservative and mistrustful governor, and London's fears of Hong Kong becoming a political battleground between the Kuomintang and the Communist Party of China (CPC).

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#343

Post by jariel »

jcytong wrote: post #220
jariel wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see this comparison. PRC has total control over mainland China. There is 0 risk of fragmentation. HK is a separate entity in every sense, so is Taiwan. USSR collapsed because its economic and political system crumbled from the inside, enabling Poland et. al. to get out from under their thumb, which is what they always wanted to do. If China had economic turmoil, mainland would stay intact in one way or anothe…

The CCP might look stronger than it actually is. Due to the restricted flow of information, a lot of the conflicts are not well publicized. If the CCP were to collapse, it'd be from the inside. Xinjiang, Tibet, Taiwan always wanted independence. It's difficult enough to unify a small group so just imagine with 1.4 billion people.

So yes, I see what you are saying.

Control in China is tenuous on some level - if the CCP fails, it might be total chaos.

Tibet however, doesn't have any power. They are aboriginals crushed under the weight of Han Imperialism. I mean, if China was in economic turmoil for a decade, and Han leadership was weak, or had the self awareness to allow for some autonomy, and there was 'world pressure on them' - possibly Tibet could make a break.

But it's not like Poland under USSR.

Just like every ruler of China in history, whoever gets 'some control' will want 'all of it' and mainland would probably be easy to unite, due to historical facts.

So barring serious collapse and revolution, it looks like HK is just PRC and that's that, and Taiwan will probably remain independent so long as US and EU exist in any material form.

But who can predict the future.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#344

Post by Paradigma11 »

ashconnor wrote: post #342
Paradigma11 wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, they did not really have much choice. China had made their position quite clear: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_development_in_Hong... "1960s China's leaders explicitly wanted to "preserve the colonial status of Hong Kong".[21] Liao Chengzhi, a senior Chinese official in charge of Hong Kong affairs, said in 1960 that China "shall not hesitate to take positive action to have Hong Kong, Kowloon and New…

Democratic reform was cancelled before the communists took power. Read the paragraph before the one you just posted. > In 1946, shortly after the war, critical voices were raised against colonialism. Governor Sir Mark Young proposed a 48-member Municipal Council with significant competence to govern, one-third elected by non-Chinese, one third by Chinese institutions and one-third by Chinese individuals, known as the…

"The reform failed because of much resistance from expatriate companies, a new conservative and mistrustful governor, and London's fears of Hong Kong becoming a political battleground between the Kuomintang and the Communist Party of China (CPC)." That seems a sensible position for 1946. But things changed till 1960 and the UK were far more pliable to allow democratic self governance then.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#345

Post by zozin »

knzhou wrote: post #337
zozin wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am an immigrant. Yes I am white, but my grandparents faced famine at the hands of Communism and my parents were poor, just like yours. If you go further back in my family history I'm sure you'd find generation after generation of serfs. If it wasn't for America I probably wouldn't be posting on HN. If it wasn't for America I probably wouldn't be as educated and as wealthy as I am. My comment was directed at the pri…

I'm glad we agree that development and opportunity are good things. The average per capita income in China is lower than countries like Costa Rica or Venezuela. It's less than half of what a minimum wage worker gets in the US. Every year, hundreds of thousands of people still die in China due to preventable diseases like tuberculosis and hepatitis. About half the children in the countryside are malnourished, to a deg…

You keep bringing up racism and devolving the conversation. The entire gist of your argument seems to be that universal principles don't matter so long as progress is made. That's a shortsighted and fairly moronic point of view. Taiwan, South Korea and Hong Kong were able to develop and raise millions out of poverty in concert with universal principles and democracy. China and the China model does not have a stranglehold on development. They don't own some sort of secret sauce that cannot be replicated. You don't have to trade in freedom of speech and expression and the rule of law for an HDTV and a high-rise apartment.

I would argue that a democratic China would be further along in its development than it currently is. A democratic China would have not have had its development retarded by a megalomaniacal madman whose decisions led to the deaths of dozens of millions of souls. Were those deaths justified in the pursuit of growth and development?

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#346

Post by ashconnor »

Paradigma11 wrote: post #344
ashconnor wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democratic reform was cancelled before the communists took power. Read the paragraph before the one you just posted. > In 1946, shortly after the war, critical voices were raised against colonialism. Governor Sir Mark Young proposed a 48-member Municipal Council with significant competence to govern, one-third elected by non-Chinese, one third by Chinese institutions and one-third by Chinese individuals, known as the…

"The reform failed because of much resistance from expatriate companies, a new conservative and mistrustful governor, and London's fears of Hong Kong becoming a political battleground between the Kuomintang and the Communist Party of China (CPC)." That seems a sensible position for 1946. But things changed till 1960 and the UK were far more pliable to allow democratic self governance then.

I don't think it was a sensible position at all. It was a total abandonment of delivering autonomy that had been afforded to other colonies - Canada, Australia and New Zealand - based on Alexander Grantham's, frankly racist views, that Hong Kongers weren't British.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#347

Post by nouveaux »

erfgh wrote: post #238
strogonoff wrote: post #132

If we are collectively incapable of making any difference in this terrible transformation, then we could do the next thing CCP will hate: do a proper study of how population’s behavior changes as it transitions from a free mentality to the oppressed state mainland’s had been in for years. This is the chance. I'm not aware of any precedents to date, but a rigorous scientific record of this kind would be extremely valu…

To do a "proper study" you should be impartial, and you're not being impartial when right out of the bat you call this "a terrible transformation".

All science starts with a hypothesis and many of those are rooted in partiality. The point is to have an investigative method which proves or disproves that hypothesis.

The fact that science reveals truth even though it can start with partiality is why the scientific method is the gold standard.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#348

Post by nouveaux »

knzhou wrote: post #246
jcytong wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a lot of confusion between opposing the CCP and racism against Chinese. I'm Chinese as well. I think we can fight for more Chinese roles in films, politicians, scientists, CEOs, more representation in all fields. However, I don't see how your argument about it being okay to "cancel" because China is just cancelling 1% and America is 99%. I'd also not prefer to live in a CCP-centric world where Chinese…

> However, I have no fear of speaking publicly about Guantanamo Bay and then traveling to the US. I think you're too optimistic. If you'd made similar comments during the Red Scare, you would have ended up like Qian Xuesen, the Chinese-American who devoted the best years of his life to developing American technology, but who ended up fired and placed under house arrest for years for his ethnicity. This process of arb…

I see your point regarding Qian Xuesen and that whole thing was a tragedy for United States. Similar things can be said about the US treatment of Japanese Americans and internment camps.

Your point is exactly why we need to be afraid of any government's suppression of free speech. We need to support people like Jimmy Lai so the likes United States and the CCP cannot suppress the voice of good people. We need to be fearful of any government arresting anyone advocating for freedom. Regardless of your government, the goal is to support free speech and the freedom of the press.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#349

Post by Melting_Harps »

notimetorelax wrote: post #111
ken47 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Invoking dystopian fantasies to rally cry for war? Seriously?

Same thing happened during most other wars, older population calls upon the younger population to defend their rights and riches. No war is better than peace.

> Same thing happened during most other wars, older population calls upon the younger population to defend their rights and riches. No war is better than peace.

Seriously, the clearer we see that boycotts and economic isolation are far more favourable than preserving the Wealth of a Boomer generation the sooner this via War that mentality can fade from Human consciousness.

I'd sooner see all of the boomers have their wealth stripped and lost before even a proxy war take place with drones.

This isn't entirely generational conflict, I have worked with some amazing people who happened to be Boomer aged, but given how collectively calloused they've been to all other generations to support an unsustainable path I want to see a massive correction in their standard of living and quality of Life so they get a wake up call to the true costs what what they have imposed upon the World. More of a rigid confined mental state that has been upheld for so long that they cannot escape it without a real kick to the head. Most of Greta's followers of notoriety are all Boomer Age or older, but seldom actually do anything: Merkle being a prime example of this.

As a millennial, I have it very clear in my mind how Gen Z will likely be the first generation to totally abandon any filial/paternal loyalty left in decision making when they truly understand the gravity of not just the Political/Economic damage (which has always been transient) that they are gong to inherit the dire Environmental situation.

I hope we see a massive diaspora of Humans to rural under populated places as a result, and given my conversations with many who seem disillusioned with their prospects in both the East and West that seems to be already happening; many HKers are fleeing to Taiwan or the UK, and others have been in Canada for some time but they're also moving to Australia, and the US.

These are highly skilled, highly educated migrants with Western values that are being competed for. Taiwan is offering them a form of UBI for those that arrive from HK die to political reasons, and the UK is making lots of accommodations for BN(O) passport holders.

This is what disruption looks like, its never pretty and almost always pretty damn messy, but I'm glad we're here as the CCP has to be stopped.

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