Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple’s ad network gets ‘preferential access to users’ data’ vs Facebook, Google

forbes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 78 posts

Re: Apple’s ad network gets ‘preferential access to users’ data’ vs Facebook, Google

#41

Post by AlexandrB »

> Essentially, Apple is forcing advertisers to use a per-app permission pop-up with scary language, telling users the app wants permission to track them across other apps and websites.

> But notice the significantly scarier language: “’Pal About’ would like permission to track you across apps and websites owned by other companies.”

> This is language that is likely designed to minimize opt-in.

Love how honest language is framed as "scary" language. This is an admission that what they do is fundamentally creepy and if they were honest with their users, much fewer would be ok with it.

I wish advertisers were forced to ask permission using similar language on all platforms.

Re: Apple’s ad network gets ‘preferential access to users’ data’ vs Facebook, Google

#42

Post by shadowgovt »

beervirus wrote: post #26
save_ferris wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you think it's at least a little hypocritical that they don't extend the same privacy configuration options to their apps that they mandate for 3rd party apps? Sure, I generally trust Apple more than a random 3rd party developer, but the fact that Apple doesn't trust me to set my own privacy configuration for the camera makes me trust them less.

Apple's in control of the operating system. If you don't trust them, why would you think that disabling access to the camera app would do any good?

This is the absolutist security perspective, where one assumes an "evil demon" threat model (i.e. every exploit will be exploited to the maximum). It's a useful theoretical model for hardening systems against known and unknown intrusion, but it doesn't realistically model the expected outcome in a world with laws and social constraints.

In practice, it's quite reasonable for a consumer to assume that the company providing them services isn't actively out to get them. In fact, we encode that assumption in law in a couple key places (to wit: if Apple is turning the camera on randomly against explicit user desire, they could be sued for invasion of privacy in the same vein as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbins_v._Lower_Merion_School...)

Re: Apple’s ad network gets ‘preferential access to users’ data’ vs Facebook, Google

#43

Post by iji40 »

jeffbee wrote: post #2

Apple exempts all their iOS software from their own privacy scaremongering. iOS never pops up a scary dialog warning you that Camera has accessed your location twice in the last week, even though Camera accesses your location every time you start it. There is a completely separate iOS privacy regime for Apple's own apps.

You know, given this forum’s recent experience with misinformation about Apple, I shouldn’t be surprised to read a completely false comment (and another accusing Apple of illegal behavior downthread, also known as actionable libel). And yet here I am, surprised.

Your interpretation of events is a fundamental misunderstanding of how the permissions framework functions on iOS. That you then pivoted that misunderstanding into malevolent intentions from Apple speaks to your biases. Of course, given that you’re a member of this forum, I’d expect you’d find this behavior abhorrent when it comes to things like vaccination or COVID, so I’d only challenge you to think about whether you have all the facts, just as you would with any other contentious topic. The only difference here is that you don’t realize it’s contentious for you.

iOS programs shipped by Apple do not interact with the operating system in a different way with respect to privacy. Full stop. Your entire thesis, conclusion, and argument are not even remotely defensible in their falseness. There are no exemptions carved out in the operating system. First party apps with very few, SVP-documented exceptions (and usually for technical reasons) are held to the exact same standards that third parties adhere to during app submission.

I know this because at one time in my career it was my job to know. Don’t believe me? Reverse the apps.

Re: Apple’s ad network gets ‘preferential access to users’ data’ vs Facebook, Google

#44

Post by chipotle_coyote »

slowmovintarget wrote: post #17
3pt14159 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea is that we trust Apple already by using their computers. If Apple was sending that data back to their servers each time then that would ruin their reputation, but there are no such guarantees for third-party applications. Yes, theoretically, Apple reviews third party code, but it is easy enough to slip something small by them.

We are not using "their computers". We are using our own computers. Apple made them. I realize Apple likely doesn't feel the same way. I also think this is kind of an "of course Apple does that." A great many people pay money for this particular experience.

With due respect, you're giving the OP a deliberately ungenerous reading to score a point. If I tell you "I like using Dell's servers because [reasons]" you wouldn't say, "They're YOUR servers, Dell just made them" because I said "Dell's servers" rather than "Dell servers".

Re: Apple’s ad network gets ‘preferential access to users’ data’ vs Facebook, Google

#45

Post by MereInterest »

AlexandrB wrote: post #41

> Essentially, Apple is forcing advertisers to use a per-app permission pop-up with scary language, telling users the app wants permission to track them across other apps and websites. > But notice the significantly scarier language: “’Pal About’ would like permission to track you across apps and websites owned by other companies.” > This is language that is likely designed to minimize opt-in. Love how honest languag…

Exactly. The creepiness is in the stalking done by advertisers, not in the accurate descriptions made about it.

Re: Apple’s ad network gets ‘preferential access to users’ data’ vs Facebook, Google

#46

Post by luckylion »

AlexandrB wrote: post #41

> Essentially, Apple is forcing advertisers to use a per-app permission pop-up with scary language, telling users the app wants permission to track them across other apps and websites. > But notice the significantly scarier language: “’Pal About’ would like permission to track you across apps and websites owned by other companies.” > This is language that is likely designed to minimize opt-in. Love how honest languag…

You've left out a critical part, which explains the "minimize opt-in" comment:

> In contrast, Apple’s own advertising service looks to enable personalization by default, giving it a platform-level advantage over competitors.

And the language in Apple's settings is quite different as well, they claim that their "advertising platform is designed to protect your privacy". That doesn't sound invasive, quite the opposite, that sounds like they shield you from harm.

Re: Apple’s ad network gets ‘preferential access to users’ data’ vs Facebook, Google

#47

Post by jeffbee »

iji40 wrote: post #43
jeffbee wrote: post #2

Apple exempts all their iOS software from their own privacy scaremongering. iOS never pops up a scary dialog warning you that Camera has accessed your location twice in the last week, even though Camera accesses your location every time you start it. There is a completely separate iOS privacy regime for Apple's own apps.

You know, given this forum’s recent experience with misinformation about Apple, I shouldn’t be surprised to read a completely false comment (and another accusing Apple of illegal behavior downthread, also known as actionable libel). And yet here I am, surprised. Your interpretation of events is a fundamental misunderstanding of how the permissions framework functions on iOS. That you then pivoted that misunderstandin…

Can you explain, then, why "Routing and Traffic" is a system service with background access to location services, but iOS never suggests that I might want to turn it off?

Re: Apple’s ad network gets ‘preferential access to users’ data’ vs Facebook, Google

#48

Post by godelski »

save_ferris wrote: post #10
acdha wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scaremongering isn't the right way to describe a real, well-documented ongoing concern. We have a long history of app developers trying to monetize their user's privacy, and that also explains why your comparison is inaccurate: if you buy an iOS device you are already trusting Apple. If you don't trust Camera to do nothing more than geotag your photos, you can't use iOS at all because every mechanism which would prot…

Don't you think it's at least a little hypocritical that they don't extend the same privacy configuration options to their apps that they mandate for 3rd party apps? Sure, I generally trust Apple more than a random 3rd party developer, but the fact that Apple doesn't trust me to set my own privacy configuration for the camera makes me trust them less.

> Don't you think it's at least a little hypocritical that they don't extend the same privacy configuration options to their apps that they mandate for 3rd party apps?

Yes. I think Apple is playing an unfair game AND I am concerned about user privacy and how people are being tracked around the web. I'm not sure why other users are acting like both can't be true.

Re: Apple’s ad network gets ‘preferential access to users’ data’ vs Facebook, Google

#49

Post by iji40 »

jeffbee wrote: post #47
iji40 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, given this forum’s recent experience with misinformation about Apple, I shouldn’t be surprised to read a completely false comment (and another accusing Apple of illegal behavior downthread, also known as actionable libel). And yet here I am, surprised. Your interpretation of events is a fundamental misunderstanding of how the permissions framework functions on iOS. That you then pivoted that misunderstandin…

Can you explain, then, why "Routing and Traffic" is a system service with background access to location services, but iOS never suggests that I might want to turn it off?

Because more apps than Apple Maps consume that information. Your “never ask to turn it off” returns to the complete misunderstanding of how permissions work. You are not prompted because you already granted it access during provisioning, and it’s not asking for background data.

Your allegation that Google Maps is targeted with engineering and architectural decisions is not supported by public evidence and wholly refuted by internal evidence.

I helped build Apple Maps. Please consider yourself uninformed and ask more questions rather than draw conclusions that affirm your biases, particularly if you then come here to spread them.

Re: Apple’s ad network gets ‘preferential access to users’ data’ vs Facebook, Google

#50

Post by jeffbee »

iji40 wrote: post #49
jeffbee wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain, then, why "Routing and Traffic" is a system service with background access to location services, but iOS never suggests that I might want to turn it off?

Because more apps than Apple Maps consume that information. Your “never ask to turn it off” returns to the complete misunderstanding of how permissions work. You are not prompted because you already granted it access during provisioning, and it’s not asking for background data. Your allegation that Google Maps is targeted with engineering and architectural decisions is not supported by public evidence and wholly refu…

Google Maps also provides cooked geographic data to other Google applications (such as "Google" FKA "Google Now") but this fact does not exempt it from iOS scaremongering.
Post reply on HN