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Fed announces details of new interbank service to support instant payments

federalreserve.gov

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Re: Fed announces details of new interbank service to support instant payments

#351
post #12
post #9

> The rapid expenditure of COVID emergency relief payments highlighted the critical importance of having a resilient instant payments infrastructure with nationwide reach, especially for households and small businesses with cash flow constraints," The main issue with releasing cash as I understand it wasn’t that it wasn’t arriving fast enough; rather it was verifying the recipient was eligible and was who they say th…

How is a national ID still a thread with all the data on voters which is already out there? You could have verified voters accounted this way too which would probably raise the amount of voters. You could even establish mail voting properly sending the documents to everybody who's eligible without a need to register. I don't understand that fear of a national ID in the US. It works in other countries and you have stu…

A national ID wouldn't change anything about voting in the US. The US national government doesn't run elections. Elections in the US are run by state governments, who already issue the IDs that most Americans use.

Re: Fed announces details of new interbank service to support instant payments

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you only speak to younger people in tier-1 cities, China is enormously diverse linguistically.

I can confirm that, the situation may improve in the next generation.

I take issue with the word "improve" there. Whilst I definitely agree that a common language is valuable in many ways, it would be preferable if a common language could be achieved without a loss of diversity (i.e. additional to, rather than replacing, the existing languages).

Different languages embody different cultures, and different ways of thinking. This diversity should be celebrated and embraced, not only as an aesthetic matter, but also because being able to communicate and think in different ways makes humans more capable.

Re: Fed announces details of new interbank service to support instant payments

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am curious, what did you use to make significant one-time payments? E.g. house, or car. Where I'm from (Italy) we still use cheques, and where I live (Hungary) they never used them. This was odd for me. This resulted in people here buying expensive items by going around with a literal bag of money, or people having to walk into a bank together. Possibly now it's solved with instant payments and everyone having a mo…

When I bought my apartment I was at the notary, with the previous owners, a bank representantive and me. The bank person gave me a paper payment for which she had filled already and I had to sign it. Here in Estonia, or northern europe.. or even eastern europe, nobody uses cheques, nobody has ever seen one I guess. I haven't bought a car yet, but I guess I would just get the payment details for the car and go to a ba…

Similar experience for me in The Netherlands while buying the house. Except that the banker wasn’t present, they had wired money to the notary’s escrow account ahead of the purchase meeting.

The bank didn’t even issue me a check book when I opened my account. Tells you something about the use of check payment here.

Interestingly, it’s been two years since I used cash. I even stopped carrying it in my wallet. And close to an year since I last used my debit card. Apple Pay is incredibly convenient.

Re: Fed announces details of new interbank service to support instant payments

#354
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What alternative do you suggest? Keeping in mind all the parties that will be involved, besides your project.

Create a fit to purpose, simpler, protocol using a good interface specification language (OpenAPI or protocol buffers). Maybe borrow concepts and patterns from the ISO standard, but not adopt it. It will not deliver its promise of interoperability. It might actually make it harder to interoperate with other payment schemes.

Interledger Protocol (ILP, ILPv4).

Interledger Architecture:

https://interledger.org/rfcs/0001-interledger-architecture/#... :

> For purposes of Interledger, we call all settlement systems ledgers. These can include banks, blockchains, peer-to-peer payment schemes, automated clearing house (ACH), mobile money institutions, central-bank operated real-time gross settlement (RTGS) systems, and even more.

[...]

> Interledger provides for secure payments across multiple assets on different ledgers. The architecture consists of a conceptual model for interledger payments, a mechanism for securing payments, and a suite of protocols that implement this design.

> The Interledger Protocol (ILP) is the core of the Interledger protocol suite. Colloquially, the whole Interledger stack is sometimes referred to as "ILP". Technically, however, the Interledger Protocol is only one layer in the stack.

> Interledger is not a blockchain, a token, nor a central service. Interledger is a standard way of bridging financial systems. The Interledger architecture is heavily inspired by the Internet architecture described in RFC 1122, RFC 1123 and RFC 1009.

[...]

> You can envision the Interledger as a graph where the points are individual nodes and the edges are accounts between two parties. Parties with only one account can send or receive through the party on the other side of that account. Parties with two or more accounts are connectors, who can facilitate payments to or from anyone they're connected to.

> Connectors [AKA routers] provide a service of forwarding packets and relaying money, and they take on some risk when they do so. In exchange, connectors can charge fees and derive a profit from these services. In the open network of the Interledger, connectors are expected to compete among one another to offer the best balance of speed, reliability, coverage, and cost.

ILP > Peering, Clearing and Settling: https://interledger.org/rfcs/0032-peering-clearing-settlemen...

ILP > Simple Payment Setup Protocol (SPSP): https://interledger.org/rfcs/0009-simple-payment-setup-proto...

> This document describes the Simple Payment Setup Protocol (SPSP), a basic protocol for exchanging payment information between payee and payer to facilitate payment over Interledger. SPSP uses the STREAM transport protocol for condition generation and data encoding.

> (Introduction > Motivation) STREAM does not specify how payment details, such as the ILP address or shared secret, should be exchanged between the counterparties. SPSP is a minimal protocol that uses HTTPS for communicating these details.

[...]

  GET /.well-known/pay HTTP/1.1
  Host: example.com
  Accept: application/spsp4+json,  application/spsp+json

Re: Fed announces details of new interbank service to support instant payments

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, are we supposed to not resist this bad thing because there are other, worse things? That seems less than helpful.

I'm expecting you guys to give up on this, just like all the other stuff. Downvote away, but you've lost so many rights since the 1960s, with barely a peep.

This is simply not true. The number and degree of rights that people have in America is unquestionably higher than the 1960s. I could probably spend 8 hours making a list.

Here's a good place to start:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landmark_court_decisio...

Re: Fed announces details of new interbank service to support instant payments

#356
Based on reading through the PDF, I would summarize FedNow as a service which provides the low-level infrastructure to support near real-time money transfers between domestic US bank accounts. The system is implemented as a credit-only system - meaning payment transactions must always be initialized by the sender.

The protocol is a full handshake between the banks which provides the ability for the receiving entity to confirm the account number of the destination account in real-time and provide confirmation to the sender that the transfer is accepted. This is notably different from ACH where errors can come hours or even days after the fact.

Account identifiers appear to be standard bank account and routing numbers as they exist today -- I say this only because I couldn't find anything in the PDF saying otherwise. There is a section on using "Alias-based Payments" and on how directory services might be integrated or even centralized, but the current approach would rely on 3rd party directory services to facility "alias-based payments" (think Venmo).

IMO a major security shortcoming of FedNow is that it reuses the existing account numbers. As a credit-only system, if a new (unique) account identifier was used then that number could be shared freely, printed on invoices or web pages, and handed out without any loss of safety, and used without the need for a directory service. Aliasing could be built on top this new unique number in 3rd party directories, but it would no longer be a security method, rather purely a usability one.

The service will use ISO 20022 messaging standard (https://www.iso20022.org/) and will define both payment and non-payment message types which include the ability to attach meta-data such as invoice and receipt information, as well as to transmit a 'Request for Payment' to make up for the lack of debit transactions which would normally be used for recurring payments.

In the 'Request for Payment' use-case, the account holder would be presented with a user interface provided by their banking institution, e.g. in their bank's mobile app) which would list pending requests for payment and provide the ability to approve payments.

From what I can tell, there's nothing necessarily stopping a bank from providing a UI which could allow pre-approving future payment requests, e.g. by matching the date / amount / account number of the Payee, but if the 'Request for Payment' doesn't include the necessary meta-data it becomes increasingly difficult to not require the Payor to manually approve recurring requests.

For the use-case of bill payments, I can only hope that the messaging format could be standardized to the point where something like the following could be possible;

1) Checking out at a retail store. The register computes the total amount due.

2) Select FedNow in our Apple Pay / Android Pay settings as the payment method and wave your device in front of the payment terminal. Here's where you would want NFC to be able to transfer a one-time-use secure identifier for where the payment request should be sent.

3) Phone presents a confirmation screen with the name of the store, total amount, and an Approve button. The one-time identifier sent in Step 2 could carry an implicit approval up to a certain amount (e.g. $250)

4) Full itemized receipt from the transaction is attached and automatically saved in the wallet.

5) Total amount charged is reduced by 1% as a bonus for not using a credit card.

The key component of the system is a service which hides the long-standing / re-usable account identifiers from the POS system, and replaces it with a one-time use only identifier. At first glance it seems like such a system could conceivably be hacked on top of FedNow by a type of directory service that also acted as a proxy for the Payment Request messages.

Re: Fed announces details of new interbank service to support instant payments

#357
post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK if I want to send someone money to anyone in the UK I open the mobile app and input their sort and account number, type in the amount of money and hit send. Done. Similarly in the NL if I want to send someone money to anyone in the EuroZone I open my bank app type in their IBAN type in the amount of money and hit send. Done. Back in 2017 when I lived in the US this just wasn't possible. If I wanted to send…

Those transactions always make me nervous - is there a reason they don't have a step of showing the account name when you input the number? Like, I type 31-45-76 0452768934 and it says "Mr & Mrs Y O Mama" or "Notafraud & Co. Ltd." or whatever, as a confirmation?

That does exist now in the UK, I had it last time I sent money - I put in the name I expected and then it showed me the name on their account because they were a bit different.

For companies there are present lists so I don't need to know most company details to send say gas bill payments.

Re: Fed announces details of new interbank service to support instant payments

#358
post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK if I want to send someone money to anyone in the UK I open the mobile app and input their sort and account number, type in the amount of money and hit send. Done. Similarly in the NL if I want to send someone money to anyone in the EuroZone I open my bank app type in their IBAN type in the amount of money and hit send. Done. Back in 2017 when I lived in the US this just wasn't possible. If I wanted to send…

Those transactions always make me nervous - is there a reason they don't have a step of showing the account name when you input the number? Like, I type 31-45-76 0452768934 and it says "Mr & Mrs Y O Mama" or "Notafraud & Co. Ltd." or whatever, as a confirmation?

You’ll be pleased to know we do now have this in the United Kingdom. It’s called Confirmation of Payee.

Re: Fed announces details of new interbank service to support instant payments

#359

Settlement between banks in the United States is astoundingly complicated, for (fascinating, terrifying) historical reasons. FedNow is a huge step towards fixing holes that private companies have been papering over for over two decades. Blatant self promotion: for anybody interested in learning more about the Automated Clearing House system (which FedNow will eventually supplement) and interbank settlement in general…

"Astoundingly" complicated???? ACH/NACHA isn't any more complicated than any other API. If anything it's easier than most if you're used to string processing, because the file format is just 80 character rows with 9 different types of rows starting with that numerical digit. The schema is well defined. In many cases a "transaction" is executed by simply FTPing an .ach file. What did you find so complicated?

...and as someone that interfaces with clearing firms via SFTP, I can tell you that it's a nightmare. FTP was great for downloading ratio-ed mp3s in the year 1998. It's a terrible way to handle things in 2020. It perplexes me how much of my industry is held together by cron-jobs and SFTP processes.

Re: Fed announces details of new interbank service to support instant payments

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm expecting you guys to give up on this, just like all the other stuff. Downvote away, but you've lost so many rights since the 1960s, with barely a peep.

This is simply not true. The number and degree of rights that people have in America is unquestionably higher than the 1960s. I could probably spend 8 hours making a list. Here's a good place to start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landmark_court_decisio...

> Discrimination based on race and ethnicity

That's "won" is it? You've gone backwards compared to most countries, even if you did write some of it down on a piece of paper.

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