Live data from Hacker News

Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

capitalandgrowth.org

361–370 of 544 posts

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#361
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> accept risks from intentionally violating the spirit of that limitation. What risk? Since it's the engineers, not the executives that take any oath of professional conduct, there wouldn't be any risk for any executive. All this would get us is a legal framework for throwing engineers under the bus via an ethical commission if they do something silly like blowing the whistle on an unethical decision higher up in the…

> there wouldn't be any risk for any executive This isn't a real problem. I take it you have never worked outside of software. You don't need a law license to be the business manager of a major law firm or a medical license to manage a large hospital network. How often does such problems occur in major law firms or large hospital networks? In other words this is a hypothetical complaint of some future condition that…

If a lawyer does something unethical, they could be disbarred. If a doctor does something unethical, their license may be revoked. These end your career.

There are already professional organizations for developers and engineers. ACM's ethics code even includes, "avoid harm." You don't need to be in any of them to write software. We would need to pass laws dictating that Facebook et al can only employ licensed software engineers. Do we really want to impose that level of gatekeeping on the profession?

The important part is that there's an accountability structure outside the company. Without that an oath just consists of words on paper.

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#362
post #8

I’m not a fan of comparisons to the Hippocratic oath. The greatest risk to AI ethics is not the ethics of software engineers but the ethics of the software engineering process. By the time tasks are handed to engineers, most of the ethical decisions have been made by product managers, designers, and business stakeholders who are focused on their own goals. Software engineers are accountable to their bosses before the…

Pretty much. Those that take the oath would quickly see themselves not hired for certain positions, in favor of those that didn't take the oath.

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being expected to behave ethically is part of being an Engineer regardless of what your boss expects. Now we increasingly see real world negative consequences of the work of software engineers I don't see why they should be any different.

Are you expecting engineers to quit FB and IG and Twitter en masse? Because I'm not. People like money more than each other.

It wouldn't surprise me if there are people specializing in ethics violations in exchange for lots of money.

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#364

Brad Smith has been with Microsoft since 1993, and is one of the lawyers that enabled the business practices that made Microsoft notorious, and the target of multiple legal actions. Microsoft only settled with the DOJ in 2002. The company pursued policies of forced upgrades to Windows 10 and aggressive use of telemetry whilst he was president. Feel free to tell us how your professional ethics as a lawyer enabled you…

So you're saying that since Lawyers have been around longer as a profession then they should demonstrate the equivalent oath and how to make it work before software engineers.

Sounds brilliant!

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#366
post #8

I’m not a fan of comparisons to the Hippocratic oath. The greatest risk to AI ethics is not the ethics of software engineers but the ethics of the software engineering process. By the time tasks are handed to engineers, most of the ethical decisions have been made by product managers, designers, and business stakeholders who are focused on their own goals. Software engineers are accountable to their bosses before the…

> Software engineers are accountable to their bosses before their users, no matter how high minded we like to pretend to be. Isn't that what a hipppocratic oath would solve. They'd be accountable to the oath before their bosses, and that would give them reasonable grounds to refuse unethical work.

... and be an easy way to get rid of any engineer who fails to do the work asked of them. Think you can just get a new one?

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that a good freedom?

Because it allows people to associate with whom they choose to. Remove that and you’ve opened the gate to legal racism, legally institutionalized homophobia, banning of religion; the list is endless. The five freedoms are the pillars of our Constitution. Without them, we are no better than China or Russia or even any third-world hellhole you care to mention.

I’m under the impression we already don’t have freedom of association if it’s inconvenient enough. (Please see Portland moms.)

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To say it’s on the engineer to do no harm puts them in the tenuous position of doing the job or being replaced by someone who will. That isn’t setting us up for success. This is where a strict licensing requirement, like Canada's P. Eng, can empower the engineer. If you think what you're being asked to do would violate your professional ethics, not only can you decline to do it, but you have a system to ensure that…

Indeed it is the same with Chartered Accountants. Management can make whatever decisions they think they can make, but an accountant won't inact things that are unethical at the risk of their charter and professional standing.

You really believe many people with won't violate their oaths and associations and licenses for enough money? Accountants audited Bernie Madoff and Wirecard for years and "saw nothing". Michael Jackson hired a surgeon to pump him full of drugs for $150K a month. Money > Ethics for a lot of people.

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You write a tool for let's say recognizing faces. Will it be used for login onto computer? Tracking dissidents? IDing corpses? Who knows. I mentioned this in another comment, but I'll say it again: Irrespective of any legal/ethical concerns, yes, I would like to know! If my boss just came to me and said "build a facial recognition system" I certainly will ask how it is going to be used. Not because I care about eth…

Why would your boss tell you about the unethical ways he is going to use software you have written?

Right now your boss has no reason not to tell you- people at GitHub knew their software was being used to support ICE during the time in which families are being separated. People at Microsoft knew that Microsoft was having contracts with the military. Google engineers knew about Project Dragonfly.

Right now bosses don’t even have incentive to lie about it because no engineer is obligated to give a shit about the society they live in broadly.

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#370
post #8

I’m not a fan of comparisons to the Hippocratic oath. The greatest risk to AI ethics is not the ethics of software engineers but the ethics of the software engineering process. By the time tasks are handed to engineers, most of the ethical decisions have been made by product managers, designers, and business stakeholders who are focused on their own goals. Software engineers are accountable to their bosses before the…

Maybe the doctor analogy is flawed, but isn’t there ethics of a licensed (capital P) Professional Engineer more apt?

They are responsible to their bosses as well as the public who are the end users of their designs/products

Post reply on HN